Manchester Grammar School OTC

[Mark Hone]

In the spring of 1915 Bury Grammar School OTC undertook some joint exercises with their Manchester Grammar equivalents on the moors above Ramsbottom and Shuttleworth. There is a detailed and humorous description of these exercises in our school magazine 'The Clavian' which would allow them to be retraced on the ground. I have a mind to stage some sort of centenary commemoration. The account of these fairly jolly japes, as the Bury boys try to ambush a convoy escorted by the dastardly Mancunians , gains added poignancy from the knowledge that very soon many of these boys would be undertaking far more serious and deadly military operations elsewhere, from which several would not return. I have contacted the Archivist at MGS to see if by chance there is an equivalent account in their magazine 'Ulula'. There appears to be a strange contrast between the histories of the two cadet forces. Bury's, founded in 1892, has always played a significant part in the life of the school, for example leading the procession to the Parish Church through the streets of Bury on Founder's Day in May with drums and bugles. The MGS OTC, on the other hand, only seems to have got going just before the First World War. The school history bestows it only a passing reference, indicating that initial recruitment was slow and that the whole thing was allowed to peter out in the post-war period, no date for its demise being given. Most people appear unaware that MGS ever had cadets and I was informed of this fact by a senior army officer some years ago when there was talk of setting up a CCF at the school. I assured him that I had documentary evidence that a Manchester Grammar School cadet force certainly did exist at one time! I wonder if anyone else has more information.

[John_Hartley]

Mark

A goodly number of 6th Manchesters had been MGS pupils but I don't recall ever seeing a mention of an OTC, prior to this thread. Presumably, its founding must have been very shortly before the war and the men who served must have already passed through the school.

John

[Mark Hone]

Thanks, John. The MGS History indicates that the OTC was in existence by around 1910 but is remarkably vague about the whole thing.

[Mark Hone]

I don't think anything has come of the plan to revive the Manchester Grammar School cadets. The school history almost seems ashamed of the OTC. Most other Northwest Independent schools had OTCs (now Combined Cadet Forces), Bolton School being the notable exception. The story goes that Lord Leverhulme did not approve of militarism and specifically forbade the formation of a Bolton School cadet force when he left money to them in his will but I don't know whether this is true.

[pbrydon]

Presumably not the 3rd Viscount Leverhulme of the Cheshire Yeomanry who`s name is mentioned probably more than any other officer in the index to Verdins history of the Cheshire Yeomanry.

P.B.

[Mark Hone]

That's the story. I'm not claiming any veracity to it but it has been told to me by at least two old Boltonians, one of them a very 'warry' historian. However, intriguingly, the website of the 19th (Bolton School) Scout Group contains the following reference in its History section:

'The formation of Kangaroo Patrol by R.S. Chapman in February 1915 was the almost first act of a long and as yet incomplete story, for the Boltonian of 1910 speaks of “Scout Games”. It must have seemed a bold act: at the time Scouting was only eight years old, and although it was certainly taken up with enthusiasm in the Bolton area, in schools it was rare: such activities as camping and hiking were thought to be rather subversive, the prevailing fashion being more militaristic. Indeed, a corps of army cadets flourished at Bolton School at the time and the two organizations camped happily together for several years.'

So, prima facie, it looks as if Bolton School did have a cadet force at one time but, like MGS, seems to have forgotten the fact.

[pbrydon]

Having found the attached entry in Army Orders June 1915, I presume Bolton School and Bolton Grammar School were seperate entities ?

P.B.

[Mark Hone]

No, probably the same place, although they always refer to themselves today simply as Bolton School.

[Ian Riley]

Having found the attached entry in Army Orders June 1915, I presume Bolton School and Bolton Grammar School were seperate entities ?

P.B.

PB,

Glad to see that you have Merchant Taylors', Crosby highlighted

Ian

[rflory]

Record of War Service 1914-1918 Officers Training Corps (Junior Division) Public School Officers and Other Staff Members of the Staffs has a two-page listing for Manchester Grammar School. Among those shown, Lieut. G Waterhouse, RN is listed as 'Manchester Grammar School OTC, Sept. 1914'; 2nd Lieut. W Saddler is listed as being with the OTC in Oct 1914; Lt D H Griffiths is listed as joining the OTC in April 1915; and Lt W D Sharp is listed 'Attached Officer, Manchester Grammar School OTC' 15 Mar 1918. All of these officers were 'officers of the OTC.'

Dick Flory

[rflory]

Matching names from the Record of War Service 1914-1918 Officers Training Corps (Junior Division) Public School Officers and Other Staff Members of the Staffs and A Biographical Register of Old Mancunians Third Edition 1910 - 1993 the following information can be extracted:

Officers Commanding, Manchester Grammar School OTC:

Capt (Bvt Maj) Charles Potts, OBE was Officer Commanding, Manchester Grammar School OTC until 1914.

Lieut. Gilbert Waterhouse, OC, Manchester Grammar School OTC 1914-1915.

Lieut. David Henry Griffiths, OC, Manchester Grammar School OTC Apr 1915- Oct 1918

Capt. William Squire Dann, MBE, OC, Manchester Grammar School OTC, Dec 1918 -1919.

Other Officers, Manchester Grammar School OTC

Lieut. William Saddler, Officer, Manchester Grammar School OTC Oct 1914-1915.

2nd Lieut. Francis John Stafford, Officer, Manchester Grammar School OTC 1915-1918.

RSM James Charles Brophy is listed as 'teaching Drill' at The Manchester Grammar School OTC from 1917 -1922.

2nd Lieut. Francis Herbert Johnstone, Officer, Manchester Grammar School OTC, Dec 1918 - Jan 1919

Regards, Dick Flory

[Mark Hone]

Thanks, Dick. I'll follow up those names. The account of the 1915 joint exercises refers at one point to the CO of Manchester's OTC, presumably Lt. Gilbert Waterhouse. No wonder he was outmanoeuvered in the hills by Bury's Lieutenant Hendrie-he was a sailor! (Only joking). Lt. Saddler may also have taken part. The Record of War Service appears to make no reference to the phantom Bolton School OTC.

Incidentally, my wife was the first female officer in the Merchant Taylors' CCF.

[pbrydon]

Ian.

Someone very kindly sent me copies Army Orders for the WW1 period which mentioned West Lancashire Cadet Units,it is opf course the Liverpool units that are of the most interst to me .

Mark,

I tried to send you a PM but the message came up that you couldnt recieve it.

P.B.

[Mark Hone]

P.B. I've cleared some old messages so you should be OK now.

Thanks,

Mark