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Remembered Today:

Memorial for Sale


hmsk212

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War Memorials Trust strongly believes that memorials should not hold a commercial value.

I'm afraid that while it is your right to hold this belief, I think is self-defeating to your aim. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle - these items have a commercial value and it is better to be realistic about that, work within that world and seek to use that your advantage rather than to ignore it.

Indeed, assuming the facts set out in #68 are correct, it is only that someone recognised the commercial value of the memorial in question that it was saved from being melted down. Had that not happened it would be gone forever and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Assuming you are pleased this man bought it from the owner who was about to melt it, can you reasonably expect this man should hand it over without compensation? And hand it to whom? The nation? The council? The RBL? Do any of these organisations even want it? Unless you are offering to buy it from him I think that exerting pressure on the man to donate it to some (possibly unwilling) recipient is out of order.

In this way you have managed to turn the good deed of one man who bought this into a millstone round his neck. You are actively trying to prevent him from selling it and yet are not offering to buy it. You may be offering assistance for him to find a new location, assistance for funding for installation and assistance finding an organisation to adopt it, but he is still left to do all the leg work. And why should he? This isn't his life's work - it was probably a snap decision to save something from the skip on a hunch. You are giving him problems rather than taking the problem off him.

It is not hard to imagine that for many people with no particular interest in the memorial or the Great War, their reaction may be to recoup at least some of their money at the scrap metal yard, who will offer a far clearer way out of the situation than your organisation. Even if they do not go that route, they are likely to learn their lesson and not bother with any of this the next time they come across an abandoned memorial.

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Well said, Jon, and I agreed with your previous post too.

Gwyn

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I'm also unconvinced by the reasoning in your PDF...

- war memorials form part of our shared past and national cultural heritage;

This is true, but could equally apply to many great buildings, works of art, vehicles or almost anything else, but this doesn't negate the rights of their legal owners. I might think, for example, a great work of art is culturally and historically important, but that doesn't mean the legal and proper owner should be forced to give it to the National Gallery.

- war memorials should be accessible to the public for commemoration and remembrance of

those affected by conflict;

- war memorials bought and sold maybe removed from public display which prevents them

being available to people to commemorate those recorded, often including family members

of those recorded on the memorial;

These are really the same point. However, many such memorials were never in public places to begin with, such as factory memorials, those inside schools, clubs, etc. Visitors, family members, etc were never at liberty to come and go and view these as they pleased. Therefore, this argument could apply to many, many memorials still in their original locations, which you presumably don't want to relocate or take ownership of?

- buying and selling war memorials creates a market value for such items which could lead to

more being removed from public display and encourage the theft of such pieces for

commercial gain.

Two points here. It does not create the market value -- the market value is already there. You cannot take that away. Secondly, while a small number of war memorials have been stolen, I suspect that is a tiny number compared to those that have been lost due to redevelopment, demolition and the like. By concentrating on the relatively minor issue of theft, the much greater issue is unaddressed, and I fear your actions are unlikely to increase the number saved.

PS. I should point out I neither own nor have any interest in ever owning a memorial... I just think the problem is being approached in the wrong way.

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I can see every reason why the WMT would not want to see memorials being fought over in auctions or other sales in the way that medals are and that therefore they are keen to prevent any sort of market developing. Enough items are stolen now for just the scrap value.

Having said that, if there is a cost to rescuing a memorial that has passed legitimately into someone's possession rather than just being melted down, then I can see the case for buying it. There really is not a good way out, once a legitimate owner of the item has had a suggestion made that it is of substantial value. We know nothing in this case of the owner, and while it would be marvellous if he donated it to a good home so that any available money is used to defray the cost of its mounting it may be too late for that.

If it can be rescued, and there is some cost, then so be it, but I can see why the WMT could never get into endorsing more than say storage and transport costs. It really would be sad to see a market develop in these memorials to match that which exists for other memorabilia, and I do hope that it never happens.

Keith

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Seems a very high handed organisation , are they going to stop the demolition of Village halls that were built to remember the the lads who failed to return and similar buildings ?

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I have to say I agree that a memorial has a value no matter which way you look at it. As with everything else, it's worth exactly what someone is prepared to pay for it. Had this memorial not had monetary value it would have been sold for scrap value.

It's sad, but a fact nonetheless and it's better to deal with the facts as they are and offer the man what he paid to save it plus his reasonable expenses (and if the story is correct he did save it from being melted down).

I have a war memorial here in my office. As Chairman of the Local History Society I was given it to care for until we could find a proper home for it. Had the previous holder not had a bit of foresight and the desire to save something of value, there's every likelihood it could have ended up in a skip. Now it will be held safely in our archive rooms until we find a permanent display home for it. If anyone wishes to view it, then we can arrange that - at no cost to them or us.

I'm a little puzzled as to who made the WMT in charge of anything? Even if they are a charity it's not really for them to tell people what they should do with their property. If the memorial in this case was local to us, we would be raising funds to purchase it for the future of our local heritage rather than complaining about property value and the selling of items legally owned by someone. We would just hope he would let us have it at a reasonable price and do the noble thing and give us first refusal.

Be pragmatic, just pay the guy and make sure it doesn't happen again by putting all your efforts into finding a permanent home for it.

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The South Staffs Pals who as regular uses of the forum know are a Wolverhampton based group are in discussions with the seller to purchase the memorial and with a venue to display it. We have not put pressure on this man as you will have read in Dave's (DawleyJockey) previous post. We appreciate that the seller saved the memorial and will seek recompense all we wish is that the memorial remains in Wolverhampton and the men named on it continue to be remembered.

Regards Doug

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Jon,

To date, I concur with everything you have said.

All I can see a self-appointed policing force such as the WMT doing is driving more of the market underground and guaranteeing that more end up in the scrap yard than anywhere else.

The purposeful theft of war memorials for scrap metal is a different thing altogether from demolition rights etc.

Phil

PS What's new? The Church of England was deeming war memorials to be for private sale or demolition spoil 45 years ago. (see my website)

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Great to hear that Doug. This man has saved this memorial and should be recompensed for his initial payment at the very least.

If he isn't, then he or someone reading the story might be in a position to do it again in the future and choose to walk past rather than get involved again.

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Only slight problem is the difference in price for what was paid for the memorial and the price others have offered for it (from outside of Wolves) on #-##y which now have made the seller think he is sitting on a goldmine. But having said that he is still going to wait until I contact him after tomorrows South Staffs meeting.

Dave

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That's a shame. If only there was a body, say one with charitable aims and an interest in war memorials, that could give assistance in this respect...

Just a suggestion, some local history societies and antiquary groups give funds out for heritage purposes, maybe it would be worth sounding them out? We are looking into a partnership with a council for some of the things we're doing for the Centenary, maybe it would be worth trying your hand with a bit of funding from them?

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Maybe I was a bit hasty with my 'goldmine' comment because within minutes of that posting the seller had phoned me and we had a very good constructive chat. Apparently he has been swamped with calls/E-mails some OK and some not so pleasant about the plaque.

He is still insistant that he wants the plaque to stay in Wolvo and is more than happy too wait until I recontact him after tomorrows South Staffs meeting, I also explained that there was no way we could meet some of the offers he had received but as just stated he is still willing to wait for our proposal. so fingers crossed for a positive outcome.

Dave

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Hanging in the balance whether or not I can make tuesday. On a similar topic there is a shropshire memorial I was offered last year. Seller still has it.

Not one local to us is it Neil

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Up near Ellesmere, Shrops. He got it at an auction, thank god he did....from a chapel which was converted.

Neil

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I do hope this is resolved soon. I have been following this topic with keen interest. Sometimes with a WTF?? thought in my head after reading a reply or two, but I must say, overall, those involved have held themselves to a very high standard of ethics from what I can understand.

As has been stated a few times already, I see nothing underhanded going on here, nor do I see anyone with ulterior motives, or greed driven. I see a guy (the current owner) who recognized the value, maybe not so much monetary however more historical and decided to keep this memorial from the smelter. And further he seems to be going to lengths to keep the Memorial locally.Should he be compensated, most certainly, should he be bullied, intimidated, judges, NO.

I fail to understand the logic of one heavy handed poster who IMO took a "Holier than thou" attitude, all fire and brimstone, if he came at me with this attitude, he would most certainly come up on the short end. Yes, I have been known to cut off my nose to spite my face, on more than one occasion.

Far be it from me to preach about this situation. I think you people are doing a bang up job, and I do honestly and truly hope you are successful in your bid to keep this memorial in the local.

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Can planners set conditions for memorials which are part of the fabric of the premises? (For example, stone panels, insets, embedded memorials, windows, exterior fixtures.) We have a few drill halls where after requests from us or others they have made it a planning condition that insignia, crests or plaques are preserved in situ or sympathetically removed and appropriately re-homed. We became concerned after evidence that crests were being chipped off and sold, or simply sanded down (especially if a community buying the premises objected to the military nature of the symbolism).

Might it be worth commenting on planning applications where you know a memorial is at risk? I'm not thinking of those which are temporary features. You could work out a template letter which you could adapt for different buildings.

Gwyn

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Back in the mid 1970s I remember a brass WW1 memorial from a chapel in Leicestershire (I think) on sale in a little antique shop on Anglesey for £5. I gave it very brief consideration, but £5 was a lot for me as a student back then, and I hadn't a clue what I'd do with it anyway. We live and learn...

...On the plus side, a few years back I fell into conversation with a workman who was cleaning a church in which I was photographing various memorials & windows. He owned up to having a local WW1 brass memorial in his garage, having rescued it from a skip outside a chapel which was being demolished/converted. I gave him every encouragement to preserve the item, and a year or so later I was gratified to see it on permanent display in a local hall along with at least two other war memorials. I wrote to thank him for that.

Really hope you can secure the future of this interesting item.

Clive

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I hope that our South Staffs palls can work something out at their meeting on Tuesday. Above everything else, I don`t want this memorial to be lost to it`s community. Unless I`ve missed a post, I`m sure that there are many forum members willing to chip in with the cost towards securing this memorial.

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I was watching a BBC's Antiques Roadshow program recorded in Stroud quite a few years back, when this guy, I don't remember his name

thisguy_zpsb50071e5.jpg

was shown a 1914-18 Memorial.

He gave quite a build-up and the owner of the Memorial was beaming with delight. Unfortunately, he finished by saying "as to value, this item has no monetary value, and as such belongs to the Nation".

Just a little altruistic but I thought it was nice. The owner of the Memorial looked crushed.

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Very sorry to but in on your thread guys, but need a bit of guidance.

I know where there is a memorial in plain site, lying in the open, ready to be 'lifted', the church it comes from was damaged in the blitz and subsequently demolished. The tablet was left lying on the ground ! It has been there 70 years now but images of it have been put on a local history website (which I have removed)so it's only a matter of time before it go's if some has seen the images. It's a smallish stone tablet. I have contacted various museums, National Heritage, etc, etc, no one is bothered ! I have received an email this morning giving me one more line of inquiry, if this isn't fruitful what should I do, 'lift it' myself until such time I do find someone to 'secure' it ? or do I leave well alone ?

Dean.

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Have you tried NIWM and the Trust. As its a stone memorial it will at least be safe from the metal thieves. For one thing it needs to be listed on NIWM in any event.

Keith

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The one currently in our care is a church memorial, from a church that was demolished many years ago and it came from a back room of an attached building that remained after demolition.

Recently we have heard that another local Methodist Chapel is about to close here in Keighley and the fate of their 'oak board' memorial is currently been looked into. However, the parent church doesn't seem to be interested in taking the memorial to another church in the district, which to me is precisely where it should go. When the 'custodians' of these memorials take an attitude such as this then what can the rest of us do about it? Personally I feel that a memorial left behind in a disused building should have been cared for in a much better way and not considered to be part of the fabric of the building and either thrown away or potentially turned into a commodity when the demolition man comes calling. If they are indeed part of the 'Nations Heritage' then there should be some rules or guidelines (or even some kind of local enforcement) about their future care, even if that happens to be stored in the warehouse attached to a local museum for the time being.

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Andy

I share your views. Just as a long missing memorial here in Portsmouth is in the process of being restored to a public location that should hopefully make it safe for a few generations , I am aware of a church with a substantial memorial that is closing with so far as I can tell no thought to the memorial being given. I'm trying to follow this up. After all we have a cathedral with quite a lot of wall space still available, but we shall see.

Keith

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I hope you are successful Keith.

Keighley and District Local History Society is a signatory to A.R.C.H. and we now receive the H.E.L.M. newsletter, perhaps English Heritage's plan for the protection of our heritage is the way to go with more organisations and public bodies signing up to A.R.C.H.

The Men of Worth Project will soon be following suit and becoming a signatory, since our interest is specifically aimed towards the protection and future care of our war memorials. We are already working with local councils to ensure that no memorial gets lost along the way. If this means raising money to 'buy back' a local memorial then so be it (although I feel it should never have been placed in that situation in the first place).

Our successes to date are:

Getting a local ladies church group interested in bringing their own roll of honour back to their church since it went into storage many years ago because of major building work to the church.

Saving the church memorial I mentioned earlier and in the process of finding it a home.

We're in talks with a local museum and council to get all stored war memorials out of storage and on permanent public display before the Centenary.

Whilst not a 'war memorial' as such, we've now just taken temporary 'possession' of the Old Contemptibles Standard (from the local parish church) which is to be restored and put on permanent public display, possibly after one final outing for Remembrance 2014. (this depends on the condition of the standard of course - which on first inspection by our local museum staff appears to be very good indeed).

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Andy

I share your views. Just as a long missing memorial here in Portsmouth is in the process of being restored to a public location that should hopefully make it safe for a few generations , I am aware of a church with a substantial memorial that is closing with so far as I can tell no thought to the memorial being given. I'm trying to follow this up. After all we have a cathedral with quite a lot of wall space still available, but we shall see.

Keith

They closed a Church in Brixham some years ago but happily the lovely wooden parish memorial in that church was moved to the larger, neighbouring Parish church.

In many ways there is a great deal to be said for drumming up local support within the community from such as the Council, RBL and the PCC of the Churches involved.

Every success with your endeavours.

Peter

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