Dia Posted 10 March , 2020 Share Posted 10 March , 2020 On 04/03/2020 at 14:02, MaxD said: Welcome Dia Was he a Seaforth Highlander? Max Yes have found out that he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 10 March , 2020 Share Posted 10 March , 2020 There is a medal card for 10382 Acting Company Sergeant Major A G Veness (shown as AGJ Veness on a medal roll) who served with 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders and who went to France on 23 August 1914. This would entitle him to be called an Old Contemptible. Whether he joined the Old Contemptibles Association is another matter. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5680349 If you say whereabouts he lived, someone may be able to say where the local branch was but whether the records exist I don't know. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dia Posted 10 March , 2020 Share Posted 10 March , 2020 Not sure where he lived during the war but lived in battersea in 1924 when my mum was born then but lived in Plymouthin (1934) later in life and died in Weymouth 1939 mum was 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dia Posted 11 March , 2020 Share Posted 11 March , 2020 Do you know what any of the wording means in the remarks box? Cant make it out. Thanks Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 11 March , 2020 Share Posted 11 March , 2020 It looks as if it refers to him returning his 1914 Star perhaps for addition of the clasp to the Star (which he had to apply for) and it being re-issued to him. CRV is the Certified Receipt Voucher which recorded the receipt and IV is the Issue Voucher when it was sent back. The Clasp referred to is the Clasp and Roses:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/ (scroll down to Clasp to the 1914 Star) Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 9 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 9 May , 2020 Welcome to the forum. Calling @AndrewThornton who is our resident OCA expert. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 17 May , 2020 Share Posted 17 May , 2020 I am very new to researching my grandfather's past in WWI. So far I have been able to determine that he was in fact an Old Contemptible. Is it possible that he would be one and not be part of the Old Contemptible Assoc. and therefore not have a badge number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 18 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Welcome to the forum. If you let us have details like his name, date and place of birth, regiment if known, members can help you. Have you looked up his medal index card (free on ancestry) to see if he was entitled the 1914 star with clasp and roses? Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 5 hours ago, Michelle Young said: Welcome to the forum. If you let us have details like his name, date and place of birth, regiment if known, members can help you. Have you looked up his medal index card (free on ancestry) to see if he was entitled the 1914 star with clasp and roses? Michelle 18 hours ago, Raxawa said: I am very new to researching my grandfather's past in WWI. So far I have been able to determine that he was in fact an Old Contemptible. Is it possible that he would be one and not be part of the Old Contemptible Assoc. and therefore not have a badge number? I am very new to researching my grandfather's past in WWI. So far I have been able to determine that he was in fact an Old Contemptible. Is it possible that he would be one and not be part of the Old Contemptible Assoc. and therefore not have a badge number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 18 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 18 May , 2020 If you post his name and details, I'm sure that @AndrewThornton might be able to assist. People can't help you without the basic details I'm afraid. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Yes, I have found his medal index card, and it indicates he was entitled to the 14 Star, but it doesn't say anything about the clasp and roses. His details: Thomas Knight, born 1892 in Walworth, Southwark,London, Regiment - ASC. # T/29155. I would also like to understand some of the details on the medal Index card. There are numbers which I don't understand. Beside the Victory medal line - RASC /101 and then B /141; Beside the 14 Star line - ASC / 3 - whta do these numbers and letter B mean? I understand the RASC and ASC codes. Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 18 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Medal cards all explained here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 18 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 18 May , 2020 I can't find the card on Ancestry (nothing new there) is there a date of entry to theatre of war marked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 His date of entry to France was 22 Aug 1914. Clasp and Roses had to be applied for by the man (or next of kin if he didn't survive). There is nothing on the award roll to show he applied. Others on the same roll, same unit, did apply and received the clasp. The letters and numbers refer to the roll on which the awards are listed, these can be found on Ancestry so ASC roll 3 has his 1914 Star, the others are the reference number of the BW and V roll. As you see both have page numbers following. I am unsure what evidence the Association needed for him to belong, perhaps as he never applied for the clasp he never applied to the Association.. On the face of it, the medal roll would do me! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 MaxD, thank you for your explanation of the Medal index card numbers. I read the explanations on the Longlongtrail site but these specific number allocations aren't described. So is it at all possible now to apply for / get the clasp and roses? and the Old Contemptible badge? Another question I have, and this may not be the correct forum, is how to find out information on his Corp / Division / Unit etc. The medal index card shows 2 Coy (is a Coy the Corp?), 4.Div.T which I interpret to be the 4th Divisional Train??? but also not sure what that means if it is that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 (edited) The annotation on the 1914 Star Roll is for No. 2 Company of the 4th Divisional Train, Army Service Corps. With regard to applying for a Clasp and Roses to be issued retrospectively, I am afraid that it is highly unlikely that the MoD Medal Office would agree to this after nearly a century. The Old Contemptibles' Association no longer exists and therefore no badge would be issued to next of kin. They were only ever issued to individuals who had their eligibility checked and could show (in the vast majority of cases) that they qualified for the Clasp and Roses. This frequently involved potential Chums writing to the War Office Record Section to have written confirmation sent to them in order to satisfy these requirements. An issue of a Clasp and Roses despatched during the late 1920s and the 1930s (particularly late 1938/early1939) recorded on a Medal Index Card and on the 1914 Star Roll usually indicates that an applicant wished to join the Association. I have however come across individual cases of Chums being members of a particular Branch who did not however meet this requirement as they did not possess or qualify for the Clasp and Roses. How they managed to remain members of the Association I cannot explain as, unfortunately, the Headquarters Records no longer exist. Edited 18 May , 2020 by AndrewThornton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Thank you for these details. It is understandable that it wouldn't be possible to obtain the clasp and roses, or the badge given the criteria and passed time. So now on to research the #2 company of the 4th Division Train. Any suggestions on where to find our more information on this company and where they were at different times during the war? Thanks again. I know more now than I did, which is always a plus with this kind of research. I'm still looking for enlistment papers, demobing papers, medical info (I know he was injured twice - gassed in 1915, and shrapnel injury in 1918) but can't find any other details / info from non-existent medical records!! Both Ancestry and the National Archives have provided the least amount of information so far!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Hi, The war diary is available to download (free once you've registered an account) from the National Archives - link. I suspect, but am not 100% certain, that no. 2 company was renumbered to no. 25 company. 11 minutes ago, Raxawa said: shrapnel injury in 1918 Findmypast has this fragment of a record... Image sourced from Findmypast Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Oh wow - thank you!! Do you have the date of this record fragment?? I did get an account but I didn't find that!! I wasn't able to find much in the war diary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 The unit was 4th Divisional Train which consisted of a number of ASC companies. The war diary at the national Archivers lists 18, 25, 32 and 38 Companies: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352147 I haven't checked it out but I have found that a divisional train starts out life with 1,2,3 and 4 companies, (his was 2 Company) and later on they are renumbered so 2 Coy becomes whatever. My suggestion is you download the war diary (free at the moment) and read it to see if that is what happens. I have skimmed the start only, be aware that on Ancestry the months are filed in reverse order so Aug 1914 is the last month. So you read the month's entries in numerical,order, then back track to the next month and read that one the same way - hours of endless fun. You will have to make the assumption that he stayed with that unit as his service record has not survived. There is an undated scrap of a casualty list on Findmypast which lists him (somewhere, no date/place) with a wound to his left thigh Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 (edited) Hi Raxawa, 1 hour ago, Raxawa said: Do you have the date of this record fragment?? Max has found the same thing, Whilst no date is given, you might be able to date it though. What I'd tend to try is to look for surviving papers for other men on the list. If you find two, or more, you might see a commonality, and make a reasonable inference. It looks like he may have originally joined up in mid-ish August 1910. There are a couple of Silver War Badge records for 'near number' ASC men which show: T/29100 Maskell - enlisted 5.8.1910 T/29151 Polley - enlisted 15.8.1910 T/29155 T/29343 Nisbet - enlisted 28.9.1910 T/29395 Warner - enlisted 7.11.1910 Might this be him in the 1911 census? - Ancestry link Regards Chris Edited 18 May , 2020 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Yes, that is he in the 1911 census, but we always thought he enlisted in 1914. Maybe he joined earlier?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 18 May , 2020 Share Posted 18 May , 2020 Thank you both Chris and Max. I will continue my search, and let you know if I have any more questions!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 19 May , 2020 Share Posted 19 May , 2020 (edited) Hi Raxawa, Going through the list in post #52, the first two men I saw with surviving service papers are 6480 Bowers (Suffolks) and 3321 Spinks (RFA), both being discharged in 1916. What their papers show is: Bowers Image sourced from Findmypast Spinks Image sourced from Findmypast So I think what the list may represent is his admission to St Bartholomew's hospital on 11.12.1914. Having recovered from his thigh wound it is possible that Thomas wasn't 'recycled' back to his original unit. 20 hours ago, Raxawa said: Yes, that is he in the 1911 census, but we always thought he enlisted in 1914. Maybe he joined earlier?? From the 14 Star Roll (Ancestry Link) there are some records for a couple of other men from his unit that appear on the same page. S/22360 Kemp - mobilised (at Aldershot) 7.8.1914 from Army Reserve AHT/436 Lester - mobilised (at Aldershot) 6.8.1914 from Army Reserve T/25375 McCombie - mobilised (at Woolwich) 5.8.1914 from Army Reserve So it seems likely that Thomas signed up in 1910, did his time as a 'regular', before being sent to the Reserve, and returning to civilian life. The terms of his engagement may have been, for example: Image sourced from Findmypast Regards Chris Edited 19 May , 2020 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raxawa Posted 19 May , 2020 Share Posted 19 May , 2020 Wow. How did you find that in Findmy past? I put their information into Ancestry and got nothing, and the same for my grandfather in both Ancestry and Findmypast!! Seems like I'm not doing it correctly!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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