Award Walter Tull his WW1 posthumous Military Cross

[bruce]

Maybe a reading of

"From Claret to Khaki" by Rod Wickens might help those who need to know more about Walter Tull.

Bruce

[John_Hartley]

As with a number of subjects, this crops up regularly. As others, I'm tempted to ignore yet another one. However, the difficulty I and, presumably, others have is that if we ignore the thread, then only one side of the issue is told.

So, once again, let me put in my two pennyworth, as follows:

1. There is little doubt that Tull was a brave man who was, I understand, "mentioned in despatches" by way of recognition

2. There are many soldiers for whom there is official documentary evidence (by way on war diary mentions, etc) that they were recommended by their units for gallantry awards yet did not receive them.

3. As yet, I have not seen any documentayr evidence that Walter Tull was ever put forward for a gallantry award. In that, if ever there were to be retrospective awards, there would be many men with a "better case" for one than Walter Tull. That said, I do not agree with the idea of retrospective awards nearly a century later.

This thread does, however, raise a new issue in my mind about the current Tull campaign. And it is that raised by Hazel in post #14. If Tull, and not the many others, was to receive an award now, then it would be because of the colour of his skin and not his bravery. I hadnt thought of that aspect before.

[Moonraker]

... People who profess themselves utterly bored by threads on Walter Tull seem peculiarly riveted by them and quite incapable of ignoring them. Whatever one thinks of the petition, the original poster did at least address readers politely.

Gwyn

I'm not exactly bored, but we have some 20 threads devoted to Walter and perhaps twice as many that mention him. Most go over the same ground rather too many times, but I do welcome any new details, such as David Filsell's post provides. Any one care to hazard how many more new threads there'll be in the build-up to the centenary?

Moonraker

[David Filsell]

Walter Tull is a tricky subject to discuss as frankly and objectively as some would like. I' m certainly not bored with the subject - just with the fact that every writer who stumbles across the story seems to think he is the first to find it and, after a little research, trots out the same old innacurate lines and frequently imply there was racial predjudice at work in his 'lack of recognition."

The fact is that we step around dragons when we approach the subject of Tull. As I noted, "Other than that he was one of very few black soldiers to gain a commission, his military career and tragic death were both unremarkably usual." But, like it or not his racial origins are what stimulate much of the interest in the man, given him heroic status and made him something of a racial token.

There are many hundreds of officers whose careers were similar to Tull's, some recomended for unawarded medals, who no one will ever know and unless there is more to be discovered about him and his career 'works' like the scrap indicate that we have reached a dead end with the subject.

[Moonraker]

David has expressed my own views - rather better than I would have done.

Moonraker

[charlesmessenger]

Maybe a reading of

"From Claret to Khaki" by Rod Wickens might help those who need to know more about Walter Tull.

Bruce

But does it take us any further in establishing whether he was recommended for an MC?

Charles M

[Guest]

This is utterly disgusting positive discrimination against, against hundreds of other officers and thousands of men who may have also merited some award or other. Even if evidence is produced for a recommendation he didn't get then, he doesn’t deserve it now.

This is what happens when you unleash the mad dogs of political correctness.

Let’s retrospectively free all the slaves and have done with it, the advantage would be we could claim there never were any slaves within the British Empire

I so agree T8Hants. What utter nonsense and simply highlights how ignorant some people are, especially those who should know better and use this kind of thing for political currency. It is an insult. Another attempt by the politicians to backfit some kind of imagined heroic history.

MG

[Guest]

trots out the same old innacurate lines

There is a typo. The last word has one too many letters.

MG

[SiegeGunner]

I am always pleased when 'unsung heroes' receive recognition, and I am very glad, for instance, to have learnt from the South African memorial museum at Delville Wood and from factual accounts of the work in various fields of Mary Seacole .... but I have no time for politically-motivated totemic tokenism (!). Walter Tull may have been remarkable for being an early black footballer and one of the first black officers, but he was not remarkable in being an officer who did not receive an MC that he may have deserved. He should be commemorated and celebrated through the telling of his story, and this nonsense about awarding him an ex-post-facto MC should be resisted.

[MichaelBully]

Sorry -point taken . But genuinely hope that the Barrowford 1914 will respond.

Michael and Keith,

I agree 110% with your comments, but I must point out that these should be directed at Barrowford1914 and not Barrowfield! They don't have quite the same impact when addressed to the wrong person--sorry!!

Robert

[MichaelBully]

Gwyn- I agree that some sort of politeness is desireable. But if someone seems to have just cut and paste a petition, I genuinely can't see what is wrong in asking as a fellow GWF pal- 'Well what do you yourself think ?' 'What is your source material?' I don't find that an adverse criticism of the OP.

Regards

Michael Bully

I agree with you, which is why I'm surprised to see that statements telling a fellow member to "shut up", "Have you really nothing better to do in your life but latch on to other peoples causes?" and "Now, THANK YOU, too, go off and produce some of your own research" are apparently considered acceptable, alongside virtual sighs and angry tones.

People who profess themselves utterly bored by threads on Walter Tull seem peculiarly riveted by them and quite incapable of ignoring them. Whatever one thinks of the petition, the original poster did at least address readers politely.

Gwyn

[ph0ebus]

So, was he recommended or wasn't he?

-Daniel

[David Filsell]

Martin

All my posts contain at least one typo I'm afraid! Pure carelessness

David

[John_Hartley]

So, was he recommended or wasn't he?

Daniel

As I and others have said, there's no substantive evidence that he was. If there was surviving evidence it would either be in his service file or the war diaries. My understanding is that there is nothing there.

It is, perhaps, significant, that even the supporters of the retro award appear to make no reference to what Walter Tull had done that would have got him recommended for an award (other than the "mention in depatches" which he got)

John

[Dragon]

Gwyn- I agree that some sort of politeness is desireable. But if someone seems to have just cut and paste a petition, I genuinely can't see what is wrong in asking as a fellow GWF pal- 'Well what do you yourself think ?' 'What is your source material?' I don't find that an adverse criticism of the OP.

Regards

Michael Bully

Michael, I was responding to Kate's request for courteous debate. Obviously there isn't anything wrong with asking someone to develop a point of view, as you yourself and many other people did. I was objecting to the discourteous and hostile responses of some of the contributors. Sometimes it has the feel of a mob here.

As far as I'm concerned anyone in this country has the right to set up a petition for something they feel strongly about. They can petition for the sky to be declared green if they want. We tolerate all sorts. People whom we consider wrong-headed won't be convinced to review their opinions by being insulted and shouted at, but they might be persuaded if treated respectfully. Intolerance is one of the things which is driving valued members of the forum away.

Gwyn

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Can somebody remind us when the convention changed and the first posthumous MC was awarded - that is posthumous in that the recommendation followed the recipient's death ? - Not a trick question, and something those putting forward Walter Tull will already have researched, surely (?).

Is there any chance of finally cutting to the chase on this one ? - The Tull "campaign" revolves round one fact and one fact only - Tull was a negro. That's it - the whole thing revolves round that one fact. There is no merit to this campaign at all. Pseudo sentimental politically correct clap-trap.

Tom

[MartinWills]

Can somebody remind us when the convention changed and the first posthumous MC was awarded - that is posthumous in that the recommendation followed the recipient's death ? - Not a trick question, and something those putting forward Walter Tull will already have researched, surely (?).

Is there any chance of finally cutting to the chase on this one ? - The Tull "campaign" revolves round one fact and one fact only - Tull was a negro. That's it - the whole thing revolves round that one fact. There is no merit to this campaign at all. Pseudo sentimental politically correct clap-trap.

Tom

I believe that the change was made in 1979 and the first posthumous award was made in 1980 to a Grenadier Guard, Capt. Westmacott, but I do not know if the recommendation came before his death or afterwards.

[hazelclark]

Can somebody remind us when the convention changed and the first posthumous MC was awarded - that is posthumous in that the recommendation followed the recipient's death ? - Not a trick question, and something those putting forward Walter Tull will already have researched, surely (?).

Is there any chance of finally cutting to the chase on this one ? - The Tull "campaign" revolves round one fact and one fact only - Tull was a negro. That's it - the whole thing revolves round that one fact. There is no merit to this campaign at all. Pseudo sentimental politically correct clap-trap.

Tom

Since everyone other than the original poster seems to agree, I can't see why this thread is being perpetuated. (Incidentally, I swore not to look any more but guess what?!)

hazel

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... a Grenadier Guard, Capt. Westmacott, ...

Captain Herbert Westmacott, LG pp14608 20 October 1980.

Tom

[Stoppage Drill]

When the principle of posthumous award was first applied to the VC, after young Roberts - Bobs son - died trying to save Long's guns at Colenso at the end of 1899, a series of awards were then made for much earlier acts. Probably the best known are the awards in 1907 to Lts Melvill and Coghill who - it was claimed - tried to save 2/24 colours at Isandhlwana in 1879. The only other one that immediately comes to my mind is to a trooper of the BSAP, whose name escapes me at the moment*, for an act during the Matabele rebellion in 1896. The introduction of the posthumous principle for the VC was a somewhat messy process, and I would have thought that the specificity of the 1979 decision to allow the MC to be awarded posthumously would rule out any such backdated awards.

*I remember - Baxter

[keithmroberts]

OK I have removed a number of posts, not because they are a major issue, but because this is an open forum and the banter was more appropriate to Skindles than to a topic on a serious subject. I'm not sure that there is much to be added to the thread unless a supporter of the original proposal comes forward with some new material. Perhaps we can leave this now unless that happens. I don't want to close the topic in case such is forthcoming.

Keith Roberts

[nigelcave]

When the principle of posthumous award was first applied to the VC, after young Roberts - Bobs son - died trying to save Long's guns at Colenso at the end of 1899, a series of awards were then made for much earlier acts. Probably the best known are the awards in 1907 to Lts Melvill and Coghill who - it was claimed - tried to save 2/24 colours at Isandhlwana in 1879. The only other one that immediately comes to my mind is to a trooper of the BSAP, whose name escapes me at the moment*, for an act during the Matabele rebellion in 1896. The introduction of the posthumous principle for the VC was a somewhat messy process, and I would have thought that the specificity of the 1979 decision to allow the MC to be awarded posthumously would rule out any such backdated awards.

*I remember - Baxter

Phillipps [de Lisle - this additional surname was added on by the family in the later 19th century, but I think he is usually recorded as Philllipps - or a similar unusual spelling of the word] - storming the water bastion in Delhi, IRRC.