XIII Sqn Uncle Posted 22 October , 2020 Share Posted 22 October , 2020 On 20/10/2020 at 18:01, Aljie said: The account I have by Will is very brief - just a few lines - and is in a private collection. But certainly I can ask the owner if I can pass it on. Good luck with compiling your history, and thanks for your help. Thanks, we'd appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljie Posted 22 October , 2020 Share Posted 22 October , 2020 6 hours ago, alex revell said: Aljie, Here is the entry in Trevor's book re. Will. Trevor is a good friend and I'm sure he won't mind me infringing his copyright for a good cause - at least, I hope not. The two stars Escort Rec mean that it was an escort for a reconnaissance patrol. Thank you, and of course, I'm happy to acknowledge Trevor in my paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie68 Posted 10 December , 2020 Share Posted 10 December , 2020 I have just joined the forum and I have been researching Capt C H Marks when I came across this thread. I have found out that Marks and Lawrence were buried on the afternoon of 26 October in the German Soldiers' Cemetery in St Quentin . However after the war in March 1919 sworn depositions from the Commissioner of Police and the Town Clerk of St Quentin alleged that the two airmen had been killed after landing by the Germans because when the two French officials had inspected the bodies before burial they saw that the officers clothes were riddled with bullets and that their boots and hands were soiled with mud. This suggested that there had been some form of a struggle rather than what they had been told by the German which was that the two airmen had died in a dogfight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIII Sqn Uncle Posted 10 December , 2020 Share Posted 10 December , 2020 Thanks Ronnie, can you tell me the source for your information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie68 Posted 10 December , 2020 Share Posted 10 December , 2020 I found it in the book ‘Airfields and Airmen: Cambrai’ by Mike O'Connor. There is also a picture of their crashed Be2c and another one taken at Gosport.. You can either Google the book or put in this link it will take you directly to the pages. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NAL76y5wutwC&pg=PT101&lpg=PT101&dq=10+March+1919+We+Chief+of+Bataillon,+Deblue,+delegate+commanding+Fortress+of+St+Quentin:&source=bl&ots=dIyhT8eIZ5&sig=ACfU3U00mVhNmrlRT3C4UV85yoladBO5mQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLmbHsh8TtAhVNTsAKHY0TBk8Q6AEwAXoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=10%20March%201919%20We%20Chief%20of%20Bataillon%2C%20Deblue%2C%20delegate%20commanding%20Fortress%20of%20St%20Quentin%3A&f=false Can you tell me if Will Lawrence mentions CH Marks in any of his letters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljie Posted 10 December , 2020 Share Posted 10 December , 2020 Hi Ronnie. I'm interested to hear about your research. How did you get interested in Capt Marks? Yes, I do have the two depositions you mention. They are included in Will Lawrence's service file at the National Archives, both in the original French, and in translation. There are also a couple of memos discussing whether to take the matter any further. In the end, it seems it was decided to no further action "as the evidence is only inferential and the German report does not bear it out". I don't know whether you are aware that the German pilot, Buddecke, wrote about the air combat at length in his book, El Schahin (Der Jagdfalke), published posthumously in 1918. I have had this translated, and Buddecke states that they "pulled a dead body from the plane and one dying person". Though he gets their names mixed up, it seems that Marks brought the plane down to earth "with his dying breaths" while Lawrence was already dead. There seem to have been many witnesses to the combat, including a party of German officers and dignitaries on an inspection visit to Roupy Airfield (see Peter Kilduff's book on Rudolf Berthold). Does this make the French allegations that they were machine-gunned on the ground unlikely? A few days before the combat, the Kaiser had attended the military cemetery at St Quentin to inaugurate a war memorial, and you might be interested to see some photos from this occasion. http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/lijst?q=quentin&p=1 One more point of interest. The Lawrence family had to wait until May 1916 before Will's death was confirmed by the War Office. Yet the Marks family - through the Marquess of Winchester - received reports confirming the deaths, along with a photograph of the graves, from the Germans as early as February 1916. Why were these not passed on to the Lawrences at the time? File copies of the reports are held in Will's service file, but I've not had an opportunity as yet to return to the National Archives to read whatever reports might be in Marks' file that might throw any light on this. If you've not yet had an opportunity yourself to read Marks' file, I would thorougly recommend you try to do so. I've only seen one letter from Will dating from the time of his service in the RFC, and I'm afraid he doesn't mention Marks. If I can help any further, I will. Enjoy your research, and I'd like to hear what you find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie68 Posted 10 December , 2020 Share Posted 10 December , 2020 Aljie I am a researcher for the website ‘British Jews in the First World war’ which commemorates the contribution British Jews made in WW1. The site can be found here: https://www.jewsfww.uk/ I specialise in researching the lives of Jewish airmen in the RFC and Cecil Hoffnung Marks is one of those I have researched. I have put him up on the site but I am always wanting to find out more about these airmen. I have attached a copy of Marks file, I can’t read the first word of the entry dated 15/1/16 – ‘…?….. against above officer’. Do you have any idea what this missing word is? With regard to your comment ‘Does this make the French allegations that they were machine-gunned on the ground unlikely?’ I think they received the machine gun wounds during the dogfight. However if the testimony is true, why were their clothes full of mud? However WW1 was all about honour, service and duty and I would not have expected the Germans to mistreat a fellow officer even though they were the enemy. Have you seen a copy of the photograph of the graves? I haven’t read Buddecke’s book and if it possible I would be grateful for a copy of your translation. Have you read the 13 squadron incident reports and logs at the National archives? I have to say I haven’t and am unlikely to go there until the Covid pandemic is over. If I find out any more I will be in touch. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljie Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 Ronnie, thank you for the information regarding your research. Of course, I have consulted your website while researching Will Lawrence. Regarding 13 Squadron history, sadly, this year's events have prevented any archival study, but fortunately there are some very generous people out there through whom it has been possible to obtain the documentation I was missing. I assume you've read back through these pages of the Great War Forum to find the relevant sections of 13 Squadron's war diary (thanks, Pierce). I would also particularly mention Andrew Pentland www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/index.html who has been very helpful. No, I've not seen the photo of the actual graves - it isn't in Will's file. And sorry, I can't immediately decipher the missing word above (though someone else might well do so). If I email the contact address for your website, could I get in touch directly to pass on further information? Going back to the two depositions, of course they were made more than three years after the events. I imagine the mud might have come from the bodies being dragged from the crashed plane. There doesn't seem any reason to doubt Buddecke's account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIII Sqn Uncle Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 18 hours ago, Ronnie68 said: I found it in the book ‘Airfields and Airmen: Cambrai’ by Mike O'Connor. There is also a picture of their crashed Be2c and another one taken at Gosport.. You can either Google the book or put in this link it will take you directly to the pages. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NAL76y5wutwC&pg=PT101&lpg=PT101&dq=10+March+1919+We+Chief+of+Bataillon,+Deblue,+delegate+commanding+Fortress+of+St+Quentin:&source=bl&ots=dIyhT8eIZ5&sig=ACfU3U00mVhNmrlRT3C4UV85yoladBO5mQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLmbHsh8TtAhVNTsAKHY0TBk8Q6AEwAXoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=10%20March%201919%20We%20Chief%20of%20Bataillon%2C%20Deblue%2C%20delegate%20commanding%20Fortress%20of%20St%20Quentin%3A&f=false Can you tell me if Will Lawrence mentions CH Marks in any of his letters? Thanks a lot for the information. I am writing the history of XIII whilst I also serve as its 'Uncle' now a term recently banned by the RAF for PC reasons! All information is greatly received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIII Sqn Uncle Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 17 hours ago, Aljie said: Hi Ronnie. I'm interested to hear about your research. How did you get interested in Capt Marks? Yes, I do have the two depositions you mention. They are included in Will Lawrence's service file at the National Archives, both in the original French, and in translation. There are also a couple of memos discussing whether to take the matter any further. In the end, it seems it was decided to no further action "as the evidence is only inferential and the German report does not bear it out". I don't know whether you are aware that the German pilot, Buddecke, wrote about the air combat at length in his book, El Schahin (Der Jagdfalke), published posthumously in 1918. I have had this translated, and Buddecke states that they "pulled a dead body from the plane and one dying person". Though he gets their names mixed up, it seems that Marks brought the plane down to earth "with his dying breaths" while Lawrence was already dead. There seem to have been many witnesses to the combat, including a party of German officers and dignitaries on an inspection visit to Roupy Airfield (see Peter Kilduff's book on Rudolf Berthold). Does this make the French allegations that they were machine-gunned on the ground unlikely? A few days before the combat, the Kaiser had attended the military cemetery at St Quentin to inaugurate a war memorial, and you might be interested to see some photos from this occasion. http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/lijst?q=quentin&p=1 One more point of interest. The Lawrence family had to wait until May 1916 before Will's death was confirmed by the War Office. Yet the Marks family - through the Marquess of Winchester - received reports confirming the deaths, along with a photograph of the graves, from the Germans as early as February 1916. Why were these not passed on to the Lawrences at the time? File copies of the reports are held in Will's service file, but I've not had an opportunity as yet to return to the National Archives to read whatever reports might be in Marks' file that might throw any light on this. If you've not yet had an opportunity yourself to read Marks' file, I would thorougly recommend you try to do so. I've only seen one letter from Will dating from the time of his service in the RFC, and I'm afraid he doesn't mention Marks. If I can help any further, I will. Enjoy your research, and I'd like to hear what you find. Hi Aljie, what type of research are you doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljie Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 Hi, and thanks for your interest. For the past couple of years I've been researching and writing a paper on Will Lawrence, who was a younger brother of T.E. Lawrence or Lawrence of Arabia. Hopefully, it should appear next year in the T.E. Lawrence Society's academic journal. Roughly, it falls into two halves - the year and a half Will spent teaching at a missionary college in Delhi before the war, then his war service which, sadly, would prove to be very brief. After training as an observer as Gosport, he joined 13 Squadron, but was brought down and killed in only his second flight in France, with Capt Marks as the pilot. So only a very small part of your squadron history, I'm afraid. But if I can help in any way, do let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie68 Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 Hi Aljie Thanks very much if you send the translation to the email address for the website: contactus@jewsfww.uk marked for my attention they will pass it on to me. Thanks very much Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie68 Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 Hi Anjie How do i get in touch with Pierce to ask for copies of any entries in 13 Squadron war diary which mention C H Mark? He was only with the Squadron for 13 days in October 1915. Regards Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljie Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 (edited) Hi Ronnie. You can message Pierce by clicking on his name at the top of this page, directly under the Forum heading. However, I suspect there will be nothing more than what he has already posted here from the war diary, a few pages back. The letter from Capt Tidswell, quoted by Mike O'Connor in Airfields and Airmen: Cambrai, seems to suggest Marks had only joined the squadron out in France and wasn't much known. By the way, have you seen the following clipping from The Times on 4 November 1915? Edited 11 December , 2020 by Aljie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie68 Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 Hi Aljie I have seen this before but what I hadn't noticed before was that the Times dated the 4 November 1915 said that he was killed in an airfight on 23 October yet the authorities didnt receive offical confirmation of their deaths until the following February. How did this come about? Maybe the Germans dropped a note? But wouldn't the authorities have posted them as missing presumed dead or captured until they received confirmation? If they knew they were dead why did they wait until the following year to officailly confirm their deaths? Marks was an aviation pioneer as he obtained his Royal Aero Club Aviator’s Certificate in 1911. Before he was posted to 13 Squadron as an Flight Commander he spent 3 months with 9 Squadron working on wireless telegraphy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljie Posted 13 December , 2020 Share Posted 13 December , 2020 Hi Ronnie. My understanding is that despite German wireless reports of the deaths of a pilot and observer being intercepted on the 24th, Marks and Lawrence were officially recorded as missing in action. Possibly this was always the case in the absence of a body - someone more knowledgeable might be able to confirm this. When I first read the report in The Times on 4 November, I assumed the information had been provided by Marks' mother. Perhaps by this time she had already accepted the inevitability of his death? However, if you go to the archives of the International Committee of the Red Cross, you'll see she wrote requesting information on whether he was being held as a prisoner of war. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/224/0/British and Commonwealth/Military/marks So perhaps my assumption was wrong. On 11 November, a "negatif" response is recorded. At around the same time, it seems Lord Winchester began making enquiries in Germany on her behalf. (I don't know what his relationship to her was at this time, though I note they married in 1925.) In February, he received a letter from Berlin confirming the deaths and enclosing a photo of the graves. Mike O'Connor's book explains more about this, but I've only personally seen what appears in Will's service file. Here, correspondence suggests the Lawrences knew nothing about this letter until it was forwarded to them by the War Office in May 1916. Why the delay? I don't know. Even then, it wasn't until August 1916 that the War Office issued a death certificate. At the beginning of a talk I gave to the T.E. Lawrence Society in September (by Zoom), I made the observation that though Will was in France for less than two weeks, his file runs to more than 100 pages. Sadly, it's a catalogue of errors and delays -- the initial telegram to his parents being sent to the wrong address, the delay in confirming his death, the family being sent the wrong medals -- which I presume reflects the uncertainty and volume of work being handled in the War Office at the time. Anyway, I hope this helps. Aljie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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