13 Sqn war diaries

[Orson]

Thanks again, Charlie.

 

sue

[XIII Sqn Uncle]

Hello Everyone, I found this forum when research the XIII History.  By way of Intro I am the OC Support Flight on XIII Sqn and am trying to piece info back together for the Sqn archive and history.  Anyone still active here?

 

[charlie962]

welcome to the Forum, OC Support,

There are experts and, like me, enthusiastic amateurs lurking in the wings (stage not 'plane)

You have but to pose a question !

Charlie

[Buffnut453]

Welcome aboard. A few of us here are former "Stabbed Cats".  As Charlie mentioned, just ask questions. I'm consistently amazed at the communal knowledge available on this forum.

[StabbedCat]

Good evening everyone,

 

Appreciate this isn't a "welcome/introduction" section so i'll keep it brief. 

 

I work with OC Support (above) and am possibly more up to date with these forum type thingies... it's probably OC's age (joke, honest!) as i'm not sure he's aware anyone has replied to him.

 

We're currently in the process of digging out as much historical content, such as the diaries that are the subject of this thread, in order to digitise it to preserve it for generations to come. I'll be making a separate post in order to go in depth, however if anyone who has participated in the discussions on this thread is able to provide any kind of content, whether it be diary transcripts, photograph photocopies, etc etc, we would be very appreciative. Feel free to PM me.

 

Many thanks!

[XIII Sqn Uncle]

Cheers for that Stabbed Cat, Ive had a few issues with access then profile being deleted blah blah blah but..... for everyone's info a great deal of the Sqn history was lost in a fire at Stafford and as such our archive is pretty bare saving some info on WW1 and WW2 but nothing huge.

 

[Buffnut453]

Shout if there's anything I can do to help with this project.  As a former stabbed cat myself (during the Tonka recce years), I have an interest in helping preserve the Sqn's history.  I can't provide much info but if you need help transcribing records, let me know.  

 

Cheers,
Mark 

[XIII Sqn Uncle]

Cheers Buffnut453, the issue is apart from some Sqn photo books we have NOTHING relating to the Tonka years other than what I can glean from the web etc.  I am off to AHB to copy/peruse the F540s etc to gather facts and start the rebuild.  Anything you have to tell or that you can copy/send would be massively appreciated.

[Guest]

On 16/02/2018 at 21:30, Writearound said:

 

I hope the following information will be of use to the organisation that posted the photos and to Christopher Garrod.

I also have a copy of the second photo and a partner to it of the CO, Major  A G R Garrod, with the Ground Crew of 13 Sqn at the same location.  The clarity is sufficiently good in this second photo to see '13 Sqn' and 'RAF' scratched, painted, or chalked on the front of the building at the top of the steps.

My husband's grandfather (320) Sgt Maj Henry James MM appears in this photo - very back row where there are two men standing within the steps leading up to the viewing area.  Henry is the one on the right.  The only other person I can identify stands to Henry's left along this same row. His name - Milo Charles Wheeler.

Henry had superimposed a date on these two photographs - 11.11.1918.  If, as has been suggested, the location is Le Hameau then could the photo have been taken on the formation of the RAF (1.4.1918)?  Otherwise the diary seems to be saying that 13 Sqn was based at Carnieres on that date.  Henry was Irish and had kissed the Blarney Stone but so far we have found considerably more than a grain of truth in all his WWI exploits and the information he has left us.

Henry joined the RFC from the Royal Artillery as an air mechanic around August 1912.  He was based at Netheravon with 4Sqn and flew to France on 13 August 1914.  At some point, as a very senior and experienced NCO, he must have transferred to 13Sqn but we do not know when.  Has anyone  information that could help us pin down the date and location of the photograph?

Dodie

[Aljie]

I've stumbled on this thread very late, but it's been interesting reading, and I would like to thank Pierce09 for sharing so much from 13 Squadron's war diaries. Very much appreciated, as I am writing a paper on 2nd Lt W.G. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia's brother, of course) who lost his life when BE2c no 2017 was brought down on 23 October 1915.

 

Pierce09, if you still have the diaries, is it possible to ask you if there is anything more there about Will Lawrence? He became attached to 13 Squadron in around August 1915. The Squadron arrived at Vert Galand on 21 October, and I understand he made a first flight with Capt. C.H. Marks on the 22nd, before the incident on the 23rd. It would be great to be able to vertify this from the diaries.

 

Also, I have a more general query. The records for BE2c state that it was 'Brought down in fight S of Quentin on recce escort'. Would anyone be able to explain whether 'recce escort' implies they were accompanying another aircraft?

 

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help. This is not in any way my area of expertise!

[XIII Sqn Uncle]

On 05/04/2020 at 16:57, Aljie said:

I've stumbled on this thread very late, but it's been interesting reading, and I would like to thank Pierce09 for sharing so much from 13 Squadron's war diaries. Very much appreciated, as I am writing a paper on 2nd Lt W.G. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia's brother, of course) who lost his life when BE2c no 2017 was brought down on 23 October 1915.

 

Pierce09, if you still have the diaries, is it possible to ask you if there is anything more there about Will Lawrence? He became attached to 13 Squadron in around August 1915. The Squadron arrived at Vert Galand on 21 October, and I understand he made a first flight with Capt. C.H. Marks on the 22nd, before the incident on the 23rd. It would be great to be able to vertify this from the diaries.

 

Also, I have a more general query. The records for BE2c state that it was 'Brought down in fight S of Quentin on recce escort'. Would anyone be able to explain whether 'recce escort' implies they were accompanying another aircraft?

 

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help. This is not in any way my area of expertise!

Hi, yes Recce Escort  means they were escorting other aircraft as fighter protection.

[Aljie]

2 hours ago, XIII Sqn Uncle said:

Hi, yes Recce Escort  means they were escorting other aircraft as fighter protection.

Thank you for confirming that, Much appreciated.

 

Interestingly, since I first posted, I've now come across 2/Lt Lawrence's own account of observer training at Gosport in 1915, and he mentions he is being trained for long-distance route finding. Do you know whether this was a particular role that 13 Squadron was preparing to take on?

 

Many thanks to anyone who can help.

[alex revell]

Aljie,

There is a book:  The Letters Home of T E Lawrence and His Brothers by Basil Blackwell  Oxford 1954. The last letter home from Will to his mother was 27 March 1915 from Marseilles on board ship on his way back from Delhi.  There doesn't seem to be any indication in the book that letters of Will's RFC service would have been omitted as being unimportant. 

Could you please let me know where you found Will's account of  his training.  The training for long distance route finding  sounds strange. BE2s of that time had a  very limited range.  The book has two photographs of Will, but I expect that you have these.

My wife is very knowledgeable on the life of T E Lawrence, especially his later, literary life. If there is any way that your paper on Will touches on T E , which you may need to have qualified, please let me know. 

Alex  

 

 

[XIII Sqn Uncle]

18 hours ago, Aljie said:

Thank you for confirming that, Much appreciated.

 

Interestingly, since I first posted, I've now come across 2/Lt Lawrence's own account of observer training at Gosport in 1915, and he mentions he is being trained for long-distance route finding. Do you know whether this was a particular role that 13 Squadron was preparing to take on?

 

Many thanks to anyone who can help.

Hi, I don't know of that role specifically and its not one I have come across compiling the history.  Is there any chance you could send me a copy of Lt Lawrence's account so I can add it to the history?  XIII were renown for achieving a great deal of firsts in their WW1 Campaign.  They pioneered air to ground spotting communications for one.

[XIII Sqn Uncle]

3 hours ago, alex revell said:

Aljie,

There is a book:  The Letters Home of T E Lawrence and His Brothers by Basil Blackwell  Oxford 1954. The last letter home from Will to his mother was 27 March 1915 from Marseilles on board ship on his way back from Delhi.  There doesn't seem to be any indication in the book that letters of Will's RFC service would have been omitted as being unimportant. 

Could you please let me know where you found Will's account of  his training.  The training for long distance route finding  sounds strange. BE2s of that time had a  very limited range.  The book has two photographs of Will, but I expect that you have these.

My wife is very knowledgeable on the life of T E Lawrence, especially his later, literary life. If there is any way that your paper on Will touches on T E , which you may need to have qualified, please let me know. 

Alex  

 

 

I certainly have no record of him serving on XIII Sqn and Ive checked the rolls from all the WW1 Operational records.  We have WG and LW but not TE

[alex revell]

XIII sqdn uncle. 

Sorry, in no way in my post did I suggest that TE was in XIII Sqdn. 

Alex 

[Aljie]

5 hours ago, alex revell said:

There is a book:  The Letters Home of T E Lawrence and His Brothers by Basil Blackwell  Oxford 1954. The last letter home from Will to his mother was 27 March 1915 from Marseilles on board ship on his way back from Delhi.  There doesn't seem to be any indication in the book that letters of Will's RFC service would have been omitted as being unimportant. 

Could you please let me know where you found Will's account of  his training.  The training for long distance route finding  sounds strange. BE2s of that time had a  very limited range.  The book has two photographs of Will, but I expect that you have these.

My wife is very knowledgeable on the life of T E Lawrence, especially his later, literary life. If there is any way that your paper on Will touches on T E , which you may need to have qualified, please let me know. 

 

Alex ... The paper I'm writing mostly concentrates on Will's eighteen months as a college lecturer in India before the war, comparing his experiences with those of his brother in Arabia. It then concludes with a brief look at his war service, as well as the paperwork in his officer's service file dating from the period after he went missing in action. Hopefully, it should appear next spring in the T.E. Lawrence Society's Journal. Regarding his letters, I understand that Will's original Home Letters were destroyed after the book was published. During my research, I've come across just two letters dating from his period in service, and even then he writes only very briefly about his training, just a couple of lines. The letters are in private collections. Your wife might be interested to know that, despite his young age, Will too had friendships with a couple of major literary characters - Ezra Pound and Rabindranath Tagore.

[Aljie]

5 hours ago, XIII Sqn Uncle said:

Hi, I don't know of that role specifically and its not one I have come across compiling the history.  Is there any chance you could send me a copy of Lt Lawrence's account so I can add it to the history?  XIII were renown for achieving a great deal of firsts in their WW1 Campaign.  They pioneered air to ground spotting communications for one.

The account I have by Will is very brief - just a few lines - and is in a private collection. But certainly I can ask the owner if I can pass it on. Good luck with compiling your history, and thanks for your help.

[alex revell]

Aljie, 

Sorry, I got you mixed up with XIII sqdn uncle!! 

Regarding the book I mentioned. I have no idea if the letters home from Will were later destroyed. If you haven't the Blackwell book, the letters begin  on 11 April 1910 (from 2 Polstead Rd Oxford) the next is from Hotel du Boeuf Couronne Chartres dated Sunday Sept 4 1910. They then continue from various addresses in France until he set off to India on 6 Sept 1913 Saturday, 4.30pm. He visited T E on the way and his first letter from St Stephen's College Dehli is dated November 5 1913. Forgive me if you know all this, but your message doesn't make it clear if you have the Blackwell book or not. 

My wife is also a member of the T E Lawrence Society. I just tag along to the symposiums. My interest is in the RFC/RAF of WW1.  I have the details of Will's death. If you haven't them, and would like them, I will send them.  (How's that for convoluted grammer!)

Alex 

 

[Aljie]

10 minutes ago, alex revell said:

My wife is also a member of the T E Lawrence Society. I just tag along to the symposiums.

If you keep an eye on the Society's website, I believe it is intended to post a video of a talk I gave last month to members by Zoom which focused on Will's war service ... though I didn't know at the time of the existence of this account by Will. The talk was a sort-of consolation to members for the cancellation of the symposium this year. Next year, if the 'real' symposium is able to go ahead, I'll be speaking on Will's time in India, so may see you there. Thank you, I do have Home Letters, and also a couple of accounts of Will's death (by Mike O'Connor and Norman Franks), but if you have anything more I would certainly be interested to see it. Thanks for all the information.

[alex revell]

hi Aljie,

Are you - from memory - the Alison Jolley  who gave the talk to the symposium on Zoom. I saw you were going to speak on Will's service in the RFC and  having been exposed on numerous occasions to academics who pontificate on the TV about the RFC, revealing their  almost complete ignorance of the subject, I came fully armed with Trevor Henshaw's account of Will's loss in his magnificent book The Sky Their Battlefield, the definitive work on the casualties on the RFC/RAF in WW1.  I was very pleasantly surprised to see from the very start of your talk that you certainly knew your stuff.  I got my wife to type a reply to say so, and how much I enjoyed your talk.  I alerted Trevor Henshaw about it, because of the excellent photo you posted of the 13 Sqdn lineup, showing Will's BE2c 2017, a photo I had never seen before.  You mention MIck and Norman. I expect they got their information from Trevor and in your talk you mentioned  Will having being claimed by Hpt Buddecke of Fl.Abt 23 which Trevor mentions in TSTB.  I came armed to the talk with this in case you hadn't. 

[Aljie]

18 minutes ago, alex revell said:

I came fully armed with Trevor Henshaw's account of Will's loss in his magnificent book The Sky Their Battlefield, the definitive work on the casualties on the RFC/RAF in WW1. 

That was indeed me, and I am glad you enjoyed the talk. I am interested to see you have Trevor Henshaw's book. Sadly, this is one that I have not as yet been able to add to my library. I wonder if he casts any light on suggestions in casualty reports that BE2c was flying in escort to a recce? This is mentioned in two casualty reports listed on airhistory,org, but sadly it isn't possible for me to visit the National Archives at the moment to look into this further. My paper will largely repeat what I said in the talk, now augmented by these extra few lines I have from Will. It's been a fascinating bit of research, though for me the parts about India are just as interesting. There's a lot missed out from his Home Letters!

[pierssc]

1 hour ago, Aljie said:

 I am interested to see you have Trevor Henshaw's book. Sadly, this is one that I have not as yet been able to add to my library.

I'm sure Trevor will be pleased to hear from you!

 

https://theskytheirbattlefield2.com/

[Aljie]

3 hours ago, pierssc said:

I'm sure Trevor will be pleased to hear from you!

Thanks for that!

[alex revell]

Aljie, 

Here is the entry in Trevor's book re. Will.  Trevor is a good friend and I'm sure he won't mind me infringing his copyright for a good cause - at least, I hope not. The two stars Escort Rec mean that it was an escort for a reconnaissance patrol.