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David_Blanchard

BRITISH RED CROSS List October 1918

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David_Blanchard

BRITISH RED CROSS AND ORDER OF ST JOHN ENQUIRY LIST FOR WOUNDED AND MISSING: OCTOBER 1ST 1918

This book is on sale on the Naval and Military Press website for £32. I was just wondering if any one has this book and how extensive is the list of enquiries given for missing men from May 1918?

Regards

David

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David_Blanchard

Just bumping this to the top again

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Chris

David

It is a large book, in two volumes. Long lists of men listed for nearly all regiments. Often gives Company and Platoon details, and covers from memory mainly March - early summer 1918, including May as you ask.

Chris

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David_Blanchard

Thanks for the information

David

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seaforths

David

It is a large book, in two volumes. Long lists of men listed for nearly all regiments. Often gives Company and Platoon details, and covers from memory mainly March - early summer 1918, including May as you ask.

Chris

Hello Chris,

I'm posting this hoping you can give me a little assistance regarding your knowledge of the Red Cross books of the N & M Press.

This might seem rather a stupid question but as the book for October 1918 is in two volumes and in excess of 900 pages, does it then include all POWs from the beginning of the war up to October 1918? There is then another after this dated December 1918 and is again in two volumes but less pages (877). If these large issues cover from the start of the war to the date given then it would make sense to buy the last edition. However if one edition runs on from the end of another, then one would have to buy more than one edition. The N & M do not appear to have any issues for 1917 therefore I don't know if these men would be covered in a 1918 edition.

The reason I ask is that I am researching 5 men captured 30 September 1917 who appear as missing November 1917 confirmed as POWs December 1917. One of them dies in captivity June 1918.

Any help appreciated

Marjorie

Edit: Having tried another search on the site I have found a volume for 1917. The information they give is confusing and I can only assume from the pages in each volume that each issue runs from the last issued and not from the start of the war. However I am still non the wiser as to what coverage is given in the volume for October 1st 1918 and can only make the assumption that it starts from August 1917 and runs to October 1918 in which case it is only this volume I would need.

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Chris

Hi Marjorie

Sorry I have only just seen your post. You have in part answered your own question. The lists do not cover the whole war, but the few months, upto at the most about a year, before the list was printed. Therefore there is some overlap of lists, particularly for men whose fate was still unknown. The vast bulk of men on the lists from the research I have done, tend to be missing later believed killed. There are POW's as well but you need to cross reference against other sources. Those Red Cross lists that have been republished by NMP are not a complete set. The Imperial War Museum may hold more, and the Red Cross Archives certainly do. The October 1918 list mainly lists men from the spring and early summer of 1918. As your men were already confirmed as POW's by December 1917 it is unlikely they will appear on an October 1918 list as their fate was by then known to their relatives and the Red Cross. You will probably need to see if the Red Cross Archive in London hold a list from late 1917.

Sorry for late reply

Chris

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seaforths

Hi Marjorie

Sorry I have only just seen your post. You have in part answered your own question. The lists do not cover the whole war, but the few months, upto at the most about a year, before the list was printed. Therefore there is some overlap of lists, particularly for men whose fate was still unknown. The vast bulk of men on the lists from the research I have done, tend to be missing later believed killed. There are POW's as well but you need to cross reference against other sources. Those Red Cross lists that have been republished by NMP are not a complete set. The Imperial War Museum may hold more, and the Red Cross Archives certainly do. The October 1918 list mainly lists men from the spring and early summer of 1918. As your men were already confirmed as POW's by December 1917 it is unlikely they will appear on an October 1918 list as their fate was by then known to their relatives and the Red Cross. You will probably need to see if the Red Cross Archive in London hold a list from late 1917.

Sorry for late reply

Chris

No problem Chris - thank you. I'm glad you saw it eventually. I will see what I can find out. Five man garrison captured from an outpost (that can only be accessed at night) on the 30th September 1917 then (Weekly Casualty lists) show four of them appear as missing 20 November 1917 then the same four listed as POWs 24 December 1917. The fifth man turns up on CWGC as died as a POW June 1918. I will try some digging around and see what I can find out from your suggestion. Thank you again.

Marjorie

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spof

Marjorie

The British Red Cross don't hold any PoW records - they are all held in Geneva and are currently inaccessible due to the ongoing digitisation project.

Glen

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Chris

Glen

Just to clarify the POW records in Geneva are a different source to the Red Cross Enquiry Lists to which I was referring. The Red Cross Archive in London do hold copies of the Red Cross Enquiry Lists produced during the war. Several of these have been reprinted by the NMP, but the archive in London do have additional lists which in the past they have copied for me in return for a donation. Whether they hold a list for late 1917 or early 1918 I am not sure but it is definitely worth Marjorie giving them a call or email.

Chris

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seaforths

Hi Marjorie

Sorry I have only just seen your post. You have in part answered your own question. The lists do not cover the whole war, but the few months, upto at the most about a year, before the list was printed. Therefore there is some overlap of lists, particularly for men whose fate was still unknown. The vast bulk of men on the lists from the research I have done, tend to be missing later believed killed. There are POW's as well but you need to cross reference against other sources. Those Red Cross lists that have been republished by NMP are not a complete set. The Imperial War Museum may hold more, and the Red Cross Archives certainly do. The October 1918 list mainly lists men from the spring and early summer of 1918. As your men were already confirmed as POW's by December 1917 it is unlikely they will appear on an October 1918 list as their fate was by then known to their relatives and the Red Cross. You will probably need to see if the Red Cross Archive in London hold a list from late 1917.

Sorry for late reply

Chris

I thought I would update on this in case anyone is searching for the same information from the same time period.

I sent an email to the British Red Cross archives and received a response from them. Unfortunately, they also have the same gap in their records/lists so they do not hold any enquiry lists for the period mid 1917 to the end of 1917. They did go on to say that they had checked TNA catalogue and they have a complete running list.

I have tried several searches on TNA Discovery (I cannot get my had around it in its new format). I cannot find any record of the British Red Cross enquiry lists. I must be doing something wrong but despite several permutations on searching - not a sausage :(

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stevem49

I wondered why the book I have only went up to 20 July 1917!

Of course if anyone needs a look up for the period in 1917 up to that date, I am happy to check.

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the-5th-kings

Hi Steve

Would you mind doing a look up for a Thomas Connor 24493 - 11th Cheshire Regiment, reported missing 03/07/16.

I would be very greatful for any information that may be there.

Thank you

Colin

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seaforths

I wondered why the book I have only went up to 20 July 1917!

Of course if anyone needs a look up for the period in 1917 up to that date, I am happy to check.

Hi Steve

I contacted the lady at the British Red Cross again via email and I asked the lovely lady for the link she used to search the TNA because I was resting my head on a wall - repeatedly. She got straight back to me with the links she used and she got there via COPAC and it is the links to COPAC she sent to me. I then followed the trail through and got to the TNA listings. When I try to access individual parts of the publication, it does something weird but I have been trying from my iPad. I will try again this evening via a computer. I will also post the links here. At the moment, all it is showing is part numbers 1 - 16 but not the dates of coverage and and when I click on those, something flashes up briefly and disappears.

I have part 17 which is for the spring of 1918 onwards. What part number is the one you have that goes up to July 1917? If that is part 16 then that must mean they didn't publish for July 1917 onwards however if it is part 15 then it could be that the next one follows on for 1917.

Cheers

Marjorie

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stevem49

Hi Steve

Would you mind doing a look up for a Thomas Connor 24493 - 11th Cheshire Regiment, reported missing 03/07/16.

I would be very greatful for any information that may be there.

Thank you

Colin

Nothing on him, sorry. There are 5 - 11th Bn men listed - 3 for October 16 and 2 for 1917.

Steve

Marjorie

Mine is No.14 -

'British Red cross and Order of St. John - Enquiry List No.14, 1917, Wounded and Missing - containing all enquiries up to and including July 20th 1917. - August 1st 1917.

Steve

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Phil Evans

Hello Marjorie,

From what I can make out, working between the Library Catalogue and the N & M Press catalogur, the Main Library at Kew holds all the N & M reprints, except the 1917 volume that Steve has, which they do have from a different publisher.

Phil

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the-5th-kings

Hi Steve

Thank you for looking

Colin

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seaforths

Thanks Steve and Phil,

I didn't post the information when I intended because by the time I got onto my laptop, their koha server was down and remained so for a considerable time so...

Here is the COPAC link that shows TNA listings and as you can see the last one is number 15 which logically should follow on from Steve's issue 14:

http://copac.ac.uk/search?keyword=british%20red%20cross%20enquiry%20list&sort-order=ti%2C-date&crns=25A72375%20&rn=1&show-library=The%20National%20Archives%20Library

If you follow the links through to here: http://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=52751&query_desc=kw,wrdl:%20british%20red%20cross

You can see they purportedly hold number 15. If you click on the link to browse the shelf it then appears (with others) as a link at the bottom of the page. When I click on browse the shelf, I get the same as the iPad, a page flashes up briefly on my screen and disappears. Opening in a new tab or window just opens the same page in duplicate.

I contacted TNA and received a response from them which included two links which bears out what you have stated Phil:

First link takes the same as the above via COPAC again - you can see number 15:http://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=52751&query_desc=kw%2cwrdl:%20British%20Red%20Cross

The second link from the TNA email here: http://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=34679&query_desc=kw%2cwrdl:%20British%20Red%20Cross

They also go on to suggest that I contact IWM and/or British Library. Now that is interesting as the lovely Red Cross lady said she found IWM holdings and they were confusing. Now I have conducted my own search of COPAC and found the following holdings: http://copac.ac.uk/search?keyword=british%20red%20cross%20enquiry%20list&sort-order=ti%2C-date&page=1

So you can see numerous holdings for number 14 and the British Library also have number 21. Following the link for the IWM takes you here:

http://copac.ac.uk/search?keyword=british%20red%20cross%20enquiry%20list&sort-order=ti%2C-date&crns=6491930%20&rn=7&show-library=Imperial%20War%20Museum They are state initially their holdings from 1915 - 1918 but are non-committal on their holdings for 1917 and I suspect the 'reprint' is number 14 only. But cannot be sure searching their holdings only produces this: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/91930

I also managed to find a PDF leaflet on the IWM site which gives further information:

iwminfo_zps0488abf5.jpg

I will contact the IWM but if they are stating above that they have all known lists and don't have mid - end 1917 then it would probably be safe to say they don't exist and if they do, they are probably under a heap of dust in an attic/cellar and yet to surface...I will let post the outcome of anything from the IWM.

Edit: I have just noticed that the title for this thread is for 1918 lists and I should have started a new thread as much of this covers 1917 so I will pop off into the corner and give my head a wee wobble! Sorry

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stevem49

Odd as mine is N&M press! printed and bound in Eastbourne.

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seaforths

Odd as mine is N&M press! printed and bound in Eastbourne.

I get the feeling that most but not all have been reprinted and some holdings I think might be original publications, some might be reprints and some holdings are a mixture of both (TNA and IWM). I will see what the IWM response is but I won't build my hopes up because I think if they were out there then someone would have accessed them by now. They would contain a lot of stuff covering Vimy, Arras, 3rd Ypres, and the Hindenberg line etc. That is why I am so surprised that nothing seems to exist for them. Except on TNA where number 15 exists in a list but not in reality.

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Phil Evans

I've spent longer than I should trying to fill the gap, but no luck so far. I don't know if the Volume/Book numbers are a red herring, but would have thought there would be at least two more between August 1917 and October 1918, considering Passchendaele and the 1918 Spring Offensive, although if the October 1918 volume covers the latter, I may be wrong.

I actually need some details from early October 1918, so hopefully the December 1918 volume will cover that.

Phil

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seaforths

I've spent longer than I should trying to fill the gap, but no luck so far. I don't know if the Volume/Book numbers are a red herring, but would have thought there would be at least two more between August 1917 and October 1918, considering Passchendaele and the 1918 Spring Offensive, although if the October 1918 volume covers the latter, I may be wrong.

I actually need some details from early October 1918, so hopefully the December 1918 volume will cover that.

Phil

Happy New Year by the way Phil!

I have 'Enquiry List No. 17' and I think you are right Numbers 15 and 16 relate to 1917 or 1917 early 1918 as in Jan/Feb. That said there are a couple in these volumes for December 1917 and January 1918 but perhaps those months were particularly quiet as there are not very many that I can see.

Enquiry List No. 17 'containing all enquires up to and including August 2nd 1918' I have part I and part II so fire away if you think your man/men will be there and I will be happy to check it for you.

Edit: I should have said that No. 17 is dated October 1918 but I get the feeling that is possibly when it was published if it is as it states running up to 2nd August. They must be the most confusingly constructed publications second to the War Office Casualty Lists!

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Phil Evans

I'm forgetting my manners - A Happy New Year Marjorie.

Your volume is too early for me, unfortunately, but it does give me confidence that the December listing is a good bet. I'll have a peek next time I'm at Kew.

Phil

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seaforths

I'm forgetting my manners - A Happy New Year Marjorie.

Your volume is too early for me, unfortunately, but it does give me confidence that the December listing is a good bet. I'll have a peek next time I'm at Kew.

Phil

You might be able to unravel their mysterious numeration system of these books! Also December 1918 is available on the Naval & Military Press website in their sale. A bit pricey but like no. 17, it is in two parts so quite hefty but having said that, someone on the Forum might have it too - if it's not at Kew - in theory - it should be no. 18 :)

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Justinth

Hi All

Am interested by this and so looked at the set of the N&M republished lists in the Kew Library. The IWM derived lists encompass all but two listed as being held by the Red Cross in Graham Stewart's 2006 Post to the Forum http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59535&p=520519

'They seem to have been published weekly in the early years and fortnightly later on, with additional supplementary lists and the earliest one held at the British Red Cross Archive is dated February 1915. The BRCA hold the following list's;-
Feb 1915
18th May 1915
17th July 1915
24th July 1915
31st July 1915
7th Aug 1915
14th Aug 1915
4 Sept 1915
18th Sept 1915(Supplementary List only)
1st Sept 1916
15th Sept 1916
1st Aug 1917
1st Oct 1918
1st Dec 1918

As mentioned earlier Red Cross H.Q. in Switzerland are rumoured to have a full run.

Graham.'
Looking at the N&M published lists and the July 1917 Volume originally published by Ray Westlake in 1989 I think that the numbers are quite probably related to one year, with each year the numbering beginning again. Most of the published volumes have no surviving number except: the Ray Westlake volume is no 14, the 18th September 1915 (supplementary) list is marked Enquiry List No 2, 1st October 1918 list is No 17 and 1st December No 21. This would suggest that the volume numbers are not red herrings, in fact they give a good idea of the sheer numbers of lists that have been lost.
This instruction from the September 4th, 1915 volume is also helpful in understanding the way the lists were issued (although it may have been superceded at a later date):
'New Telephone No - Gerrard 3616
British Red Cross
And
St John Ambulance
Enquiry Department for Wounded and Missing
31, St. James' Square, S.W.
September 1st, 1915
HOSPITAL SEARCHERS' LIST
Dear Sir,

We have decided that it is desirable to make a material reduction in the cost of printing our weekly Hospital Searchers Lists; in the future, therefore, researchers will only be supplied with a complete list of current enquiries once a month; in the intervals we shall publish a weekly Supplementary List, containing only the new enquiries for that week, these will be embodied in the full list at the end of every four weeks (or in some case five).'

More to come in next post

Posted early by mistake!

Best

Edited by justin

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