Public Schools and the Great War

[Steven Broomfield]

Having been pondering the purchase of the p/b version of this book, imagine my delight to find a pristine h/b edition in the 2nd hand book shop at the NT's Lanhydrock (in Cornwall) for the princely sum of ... £4.

Back of the net!

[Muerrisch]

Long way to go for a not very good book though!

[MBrockway]

Interesting point made in another book was that in many PS the boys who weren't any good at sport joined the cadets, because less skill was required. They were ridiculed according to the author. How general this was I don't know. It's an interesting observation.They then found themselves as leader class in some ways by default.

As further evidence to refute this, here is the obit of Capt Geoffrey Wallington, 10 KRRC ...

Certainly successful in sport, corps and intellectual pursuits.

To be honest, but highly unscientific, most of the OTC public schoolboys I have come across have tended to be good sportsmen, somewhat giving the lie to this theory.

Can you remember which book mentioned this theory about the non-sporty types drifting into the OTC at public schools?

[MBrockway]

Mike,

Presumably you've included Evelyn Southwell, 9/RB, KiA 15 Sep 1916.

Also an elite oarsman. OUBC 1907 & 1908. I'd be very surprised if he was not in the Eton 1st Boat. Andy can confirm.

See these topics:

Two Men - One Memorial

Lt EHL Southwell, 9th Rifle Brigade

75 Old Etonians fell in the Great War from the KRRC alone.

Cheers,

Mark

Having spent a happy half hour browsing this book in the bookshop yesterday, I am pleased to report that the photographs section contains separate portraits of both Evelyn Southwell and Malcolm White (Andy: both of which were new to me) and Two Men is mentioned in the text.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Quote from MBrockway:

Does anyone know where historic lists of HMC member schools could be found?

Whitaker's Almanack used to include a list of HMC schools. I have not looked at a recent edition.

Daggers

Having browsed the book in the bookshop, there is actually an Appendix listing the schools the authors have included in order to derive their statistics. The schools that were in the HMC at the outbreak of hostilities are marked with an asterisk.

[Mark Hone]

Re the OTC non-sporty types, it's absolute gubbins as far as Bury Grammar is concerned. Apart from the examples quoted above , the Senior Cadet in 1914, William Morris, was champion public school athlete. On the whole, to this day the keen CCF types at school tend to be good sportsmen.

[MBrockway]

Re the OTC non-sporty types, it's abdolute gubbins as far as Bury Grammar is concerned. Apart from the examples quoted above , the Senior Cadet in 1914, William Morris, was champion public school athlete. On the whole, to this day the keen CCF types at school tend to be good sportsmen.

That completely agrees with my experiences at my own school.

In any case, it's absolute gubbins anyway that being successful in sport and in academic pursuits are mutually exclusive.

[chrissparrow]

Indeed! The war produced all sorts of heroes - sporting, gifted leaders, academics, nobodies all proved themselves on the battlefield. I can give examples of many of each. Any placing into categories is far too simplistic. Moral qualities gained in education were more important and I don't just mean at public schools. The whole education system taught respect and service. Doing the right thing. Not so common now although schools are trying hard - it is the positions that continue to get in the way!

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Indeed! The war produced all sorts of heroes - sporting, gifted leaders, academics, nobodies all proved themselves on the battlefield. I can give examples of many of each. Any placing into categories is far too simplistic. Moral qualities gained in education were more important and I don't just mean at public schools. The whole education system taught respect and service. Doing the right thing. Not so common now although schools are trying hard - it is the positions that continue to get in the way!

Chris

positions?

positrons?

possessions?

postillions even?

[chrissparrow]

None of the above - I hate predictive text! Ok Grumpy - it is the politicians that get in the way!

Chris

[Martin Bennitt]

Just come across a review of this book and others about public schools in the Great War in a US publication

http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/A-schoolboy-s-guide-to-war-7963

Cheers Martin B

[David Filsell]

How intriguing that a thread on public school boys should attract so many posters. I touch my cap to you.

[villager76]

I've transcribed the 162 schools/colleges listed under OTC from the 1915 Hart's Annual Army List (data correct to Dec 1914). I've also included four additional establishments (bracketed) not in the list, but who have "officers of the late VF doing duty with Cadet units." in another section of Hart's List ....

Apologies for my inevitable transcription errors.

Aldenham School, Elstree, Herts.

All Hallows School, Honiton, Devon

Ampleforth College, Oswaldkirk, nr. Gilling, Yorks.

Ardingly College, Hayward's Heath.

Beaumont College, Old Windsor.

Bedford Grammar School, Bedford.

Bedford Modern School, Bedford.

Berkhamsted School, Berkhamsted, Herts.

Bloxham School, Bloxham, Banbury.

Blundell's School, Tiverton, N. Devon.

Bournemouth School, Bournemouth,

Bradfield College, Bradfield, Reading.

Bridlington Grammar School, Bridlington, Yorkshire.

Brighton College, Brighton.

(Brighton Preparatory Schools Cadet Corps)

Bristol Grammar School, Bristol,

Bromsgrove School, Bromsgrove, Worcestershire.

Buckland School, West Buckland, South Molton, N. Devon.

Bury Grammar School, Bury, Lancashire.

Cambridge and County School, Cambridge.

Campbell College, Belfast,

Charterhouse School, Godalming.

Cheltenham College, Cheltenham.

Chigwell School, Chigwell, Essex.

Christ's Hospital, West Horsham.

Churcher's College, Petersfield, Hants.

City of London School, Victoria Embankment, E.C.

Clifton College, Bristol.

Cork Grammar School.

Cranbrook School. Cranbrook, Kent.

Cranleigh School. Cranleigh, Surrey.

Dartford Grammar School, Dartford, Kent.

Dean Close School, Cheltenham.

Denstone College, Rocester, Staffs.

Derby School, Derby.

Dollar Institution, Dollar, Clacks.

Dorchester Grammar School, Dorchester.

Dover College, Dover.

Downside School, near Bath.

Dulwich College, Dulwich, S.E.

Eastbourne College. Eastbourne.

Edinburgh Academy. Edinburgh

Elizabeth College, Guernsey.

Ellesmere College. Ellesmere, Shropshire,

Elstow School. Bedford,

Emanuel School. Wandsworth Common, S.W.

Epsom College. Epsom.

Eton College. Eton.

Exeter School. Exeter,

Felstead School. Felstead, Essex.

Fettes College. Edinburgh

Forest School. Walthamstow, N.E.

Framlingham College. Framlingham, Suffolk,

George Heriot's School. Edinburgh.

George Watson's Boys' College, Edinburgh.

Giggleswick School. Settle, Yorks.

Glasgow Academy. Glasgow.

Glasgow High School. Glasgow.

Glenalmond College. Glenalmond

Gresham's School. Holt, Norfolk.

Grimsby Municipal College. Grimsby,

Haileybury College. Haileybury, Herts.

Handsworth Grammar School. Handsworth, Staffs.

Harrow School. Harrow-on-the-Hill.

Hereford Cathedral School. Hereford.

Hertford Grammar School, Hertford,

Highgate School, Highgate, N.

Hillhead High School, Glasgow.

Hurstpierpoint College. Hurstpierpoint, Sussex,

Hymers College. Hull.

Imperial Service College. Windsor,

Ipswich School. Ipswich,

Kelly College. Tavistock, Devon.

Kelvinside Academy, Glasgow,

King Alfred's School. Wantage, Berks,

King Edward VII. School. Sheffield,

King Edward's School. Bath.

King Edward's Grammar School, Bury St. Edmunds,

King Edward's School. Birmingham.

King William's College. Isle of Man.

King's College. Taunton,

King's College School. Wimbledon,

King's School. Bruton

King's School. Canterbury.

King's School. 54, High Street, Grantham.

King's School. Rochester.

King's School. Warwick.

King's School. Worcester.

Kirkcaldy High School. Kirkcaldy

Lancing College. Shoreham, Sussex.

Leeds Grammar School. Leeds.

Leys School. Cambridge.

Liverpool College. Liverpool,

Liverpool Institute, Liverpool.

Loretto School. Musselburgh

Louth School. Louth, Lincolnshire.

Maidstone Grammar School, Maidstone.

Malvern College. Malvern, Worcestershire.

Manchester Grammar School, Manchester.

Marlborough College, Marlborough, Wiltshire.

Merchant Taylors' School, Charterhouse Square, E.C.

Merchiston Castle School, Edinburgh

Mill Hill School. Mill Hill, N.W.

Monkton Combe School, Near Bath,

Morrison's Academy. Crieff.

Newcastle-under-Lyme High School, Newcastle, Staffs.

North Eastern County School, Barnard Castle.

Nottingham High School, Nottingham.

Oakham School. Oakham.

Oratory School. Edgbaston.

Oundle School. Oundle.

Perse School. Cambridge.

Plymouth College, Plymouth,

Portsmouth Grammar School, Portsmouth,

Queen Mary's Grammar School, Walsall.

Radley College, Abingdon, Berks.

Reading School, Reading,

Reigate Grammar School, Reigate.

Repton School, Repton, Staffs.

Rossall School, Fleetwood, Lanes.

Royal Grammar School of King Edward VI, Guildford.

Royal Grammar School. Newcastle-on-Tyne.

Royal Grammar School. Worcester.

Royal Grammar School. High Wycornbe, Bucks.

Royal Grammar School. Lancaster.

Roysse's School, Abingdon.

Rugby School, Rugby.

St. Albans School, St. Albans, Herts.

St. Andrew's College, Dublin,

St. Bees School, St. Bees, Cumberland.

St. Columba's. College, Rathfarnam, Co. Dublin,

St. Dunstan's College, Catford, S.E.

St. Edward's School, Oxford.

St. John's School, Leatherhead'

St. Lawrence College, Ramsgate.

(St Leonard’s Collegiate School Cadets)

St. Paul's School, West Kensington, W.

St. Peter's School, York.

(Seaford College Cadets)

Sedbergh School, Sedbergh, Yorks.

Sherborne School, Sherborne, Dorset.

Shrewsbury School, Shrewsbury.

Sidcup Hall School, Sidcup, Kent.

Sir Roger Manwood's School, Sandwich, Kent.

Skinners' School, Tunbridge Wells.

Solihull Grammar School, Solihull, Warwickshire.

Stonyhurst College, Blackburn, Lanes.

Taunton School, Taunton.

Tonbridge School, Tonbridge.

Trent College, Long Eaton, Derbyshire.

University College School, Frognal, Hampstead, N.W.

(University School, Hastings, Cadet Company)

Uppingham School, Uppingham.

Victoria College, Jersey,

Wellingborough Grammar School, Wellingborough, Northants.

Wellington College. Berks.

Wellington College. Wellington, Salop.

Wellington School. Wellington, Somerset.

West Buckland School, West Buckland, South Molton,

Westminster School, Dean's Yard, Westminster, S.W.

Whitgift Grammar School, Croydon.

Wilson's School. Camberwell, S.E.

Winchester College, Winchester.

Wolverhampton Grammar School, Wolverhampton.

Woodbridge School. Woodbridge, Suffolk.

Worksop College. Worksop, Notts.

Many many thanks for this post You have provided verification to my thinking that Louth School, Actually King Edward Vi Grammar School as one boy Francis Cuthbert Horn was a boarder here according to the 1911 census. Many thanks once more I am using tis as part of my work and research for the Lincolnshire Remembers project. I am a volunteer researcher writer Villager 76

[The Scorer]

I am reopening this topic, and I hope that you'll agree that it's an appropriate place to put this.

 

I'm currently reading the biography of Major General Sir Colin Gubbins KCMG, DSO, MC ("SOE's Mastermind" by Brian Lett). As the title says, he was the driving force behind the Special operations Executive in the Second World War. However, in August 1914, he was actually in Germany on a German language course, and had to make a very risky journey home. This was because he was an officer cadet at the Woolwich Military Academy, and destined (he thought) for the Royal Horse Artillery. He made it home, and the rest, they say, is history.

 

However, that's not the reason I'm posting this. The reason is that one of the schools that he attended was Cheltenham College, where he was a member  of the Boyne House Gym VIII. There's a picture of that team in the book, with the very sad caption that "By October 1917, all the front row (five out of nine boys - my addition in italics) had been killed."  

 

Unfortunately, although there are handwritten names under the photo, they're not very legible, so I don't know who most of them were. The only one who is identified elsewhere in the book is Isaac Newton Woodiwiss, who was killed on 10th May 1915 whilst acting as an observer in the Royal Flying Corps. This is his CWGC entry:

 

WOODIWISS, I. NEWTON

Rank:                          Second Lieutenant

Date of Death:            10/05/1915

Age:                            18

Regiment / Service:     Royal Flying Corps, 3rd Squadron and Lincolnshire Regiment

Grave Reference:        XV. M. 38.

Cemetery:                    Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez, Pas-de-Calais, France

Additional Information: Son of Isaac Newton Woodiwiss and Maud Mary Woodiwiss, of Trusthorpe Hall, Trusthorpe, Mablethorpe, Lincs.

 

 

I just though that it was worth sharing with you. Incidentally, the book is very good so far, although I'm only up to 1917; I'm looking forward to reading the rest.  

[MBrockway]

On 01/03/2017 at 19:52, The Scorer said:

I am reopening this topic, and I hope that you'll agree that it's an appropriate place to put this.

 

I'm currently reading the biography of Major General Sir Colin Gubbins KCMG, DSO, MC ("SOE's Mastermind" by Brian Lett). As the title says, he was the driving force behind the Special operations Executive in the Second World War. However, in August 1914, he was actually in Germany on a German language course, and had to make a very risky journey home. This was because he was an officer cadet at the Woolwich Military Academy, and destined (he thought) for the Royal Horse Artillery. He made it home, and the rest, they say, is history.

 

However, that's not the reason I'm posting this. The reason is that one of the schools that he attended was Cheltenham College, where he was a member  of the Boyne House Gym VIII. There's a picture of that team in the book, with the very sad caption that "By October 1917, all the front row (five out of nine boys - my addition in italics) had been killed."  

 

Unfortunately, although there are handwritten names under the photo, they're not very legible, so I don't know who most of them were. The only one who is identified elsewhere in the book is Isaac Newton Woodiwiss, who was killed on 10th May 1915 whilst acting as an observer in the Royal Flying Corps. This is his CWGC entry:

 

WOODIWISS, I. NEWTON

Rank:                          Second Lieutenant

Date of Death:            10/05/1915

Age:                            18

Regiment / Service:     Royal Flying Corps, 3rd Squadron and Lincolnshire Regiment

Grave Reference:        XV. M. 38.

Cemetery:                    Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez, Pas-de-Calais, France

Additional Information: Son of Isaac Newton Woodiwiss and Maud Mary Woodiwiss, of Trusthorpe Hall, Trusthorpe, Mablethorpe, Lincs.

 

 

I just though that it was worth sharing with you. Incidentally, the book is very good so far, although I'm only up to 1917; I'm looking forward to reading the rest.  

 

The picture ...

 

Front row (L-R): I.N. Woodiwiss; G.M. Renny; A.O. Roberts; J.G. Caruth; I.P. Campbell.

Back row (L-R): M.S. ?Teversham; C.McV. Gubbins; J.N. Taylor; E.V.C. Hamilton.

 

Of the five in the front row all killed in the Great War, this is what I've uncovered from CWGC ...

 

2/Lt I.N. Woodiwiss, RFC - see The Scorer's post above.

 

Lt. Gerald Mercer RENNY, RFA, 92nd Brigade
Died: 15 Apr 1917
Son of Maj. Gen. Sidney Mercer Renny, C.S.I., C.I.E, and E. C. Renny, of The Hereford Hotel, West Bolton Gardens, Kensington, London.

 

A.O. Roberts
see below

 

2/t James Gordon CARUTH, att. 2/Royal Irish Rifles
Died: 25 Sep 1915
Son of Mr. J. D. and Mrs. C. H. Caruth, of Hougomont, Ballymena, Co. Antrim

 

I.P. Campbell
probably ...
2/Lt Ian Patrick CAMPBELL, 1/Cameron Highlanders
Died: 09 May 1915
Son of Patrick Campbell

Two hits for "A.O. Roberts" but neither seem to be great matches for a Cheltonian gymnast ...

Pte. Aneurin Owen ROBERTS, 50th Bn., MCG
Died: 11 Nov 1918 (note this date )
Son of Thomas and Isabella Roberts; husband of Alice May Roberts, of 1, Park Crescent, Kew, Victoria. Born at Ballarat.

Pte. Alfred Overall ROBERTS, 23 Bn., AIF
03 May 1917
Son of Thomas and Isabella Roberts; husband of Alice May Roberts, of 1, Park Crescent, Kew, Victoria. Born at Ballarat.

 

Gubbins, the subject of the book, became Maj.-Genl. Sir Colin McVean GUBBINS, KCMG, DSO, MC and int. al. was the originator and CO of Scissorforce - the Independent Companies, precursors to the Commandos - deployed in Norway in 1940.  This included No 4 Independent Company, later to become No 2 Commando, which included the contingent from the Liverpool Scottish.  Many of you will be aware of the soft spot I have for 5 Troop (Liverpool Scottish), No 2 Commando, as three of their number were billeted by my grandparents in Ayr in 1941-42 immediately before they went on the St Nazaire Raid.  There one died of wounds and the other two became POW

 

Mark

 

Edited 4 March , 2017 by MBrockway

[The Scorer]

Thank you for adding to this; I was going to get the magnifying glass out this morning to see if I could identify any names, so you've saved me a job!

 

Regarding the missing one, could it be A D Roberts? There's one entry as follows:

 

ROBERTS, ARTHUR DORICOURT

Rank:                        Lieutenant

Date of Death:           31/08/1917

Regiment/Service:     Royal Flying Corps

Awards:                     MC

 

Grave Reference:      Near East boundary.

Cemetery:                  Byfleet (St Mary) Churchyard

 

Just a thought ..... !

[MBrockway]

Yes indeed, I believe you are correct:  it is A.D. Roberts - not A.O. Roberts!

 

Here's the handwritten caption ...

 

 

[The Scorer]

Ah, thanks - it's that I have seen signatures like that in the past, which is why I thought that it might be the case now.

 

 

[PhilB]

A.O Roberts, Temp/Lt 6/7/15, 17th RWF a possibility? It seems likely he didn`t die in the war as he doesn`t appear on the roll of honour:-

http://www.remembering.org.uk/roll_of_honour_R.htm

 

Interestingly, the list indicates that more served as ORs rather than officers.

Edited 5 March , 2017 by PhilB

[MBrockway]

23 minutes ago, PhilB said:

A.O Roberts, Temp/Lt 6/7/15, 17th RWF a possibility? It seems likely he didn`t die in the war as he doesn`t appear on the roll of honour:-

http://www.remembering.org.uk/roll_of_honour_R.htm

 

Apologies for the wasted effort, but it's definitely A. D. Roberts ...

 

 

I didn't look at it closely enough (was distracted by trying to decipher M.S. ?Teversham in the back row.

 

Mark

Edited 5 March , 2017 by MBrockway

[PhilB]

There`s no A D Roberts on the memorial either! There`s a 2/Lt A D Roberts, 24/11/14, 10th Cameronians.

Edited 5 March , 2017 by PhilB

[MBrockway]

16 minutes ago, PhilB said:

There`s no A D Roberts on the memorial either! There`s a 2/Lt A D Roberts, 24/11/14, 10th Cameronians.

 

That Roll of Honour is for all of Cheltenham, supposedly including Cheltenham College, but Renny, Caruth and Woodiwiss are all also missing, and Woodiwiss definitely did die!

 

Only I.P Campbell is listed and is the same man I listed above.  He's also tagged with the 'COL' code signifying he's on the Cheltenham College memorial.

 

So far I've failed to find a transcription of the college memorial.  Plenty of pictures thereof, but all completely illegible  Why do people bother posting extremely blurred images of a war memorial!!

Edited 5 March , 2017 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

Further to the above, I notice the entry for the Dean Close School memorial on that RoH website states this

Quote

Dean Close School is a boarding school so the majority of its pupils were not Cheltonians.   In the windows below is the alphabetical list of "Cheltonians"  (i.e. those who are commemorated on other memorials in the Cheltenham area).

 

Looks like the website compilers have filtered out anyone on the Dean Close tablets who are not also mentioned on a Cheltenham local memorial.

 

Perhaps they've done the same for Cheltenham College.

 

Barking mad if you ask me - I was at school some twenty miles from the family home and many of my schoolmates were from much further afield.  We definitely saw ourselves as members of the school's city's community, the city saw us that way too and our contribution to the community was not insignificant.  Had we fallen in battle, we would have been very disappointed to see future generations scrub us off any roll of honour site for our school's city because we were not the equivalent of "Cheltonians".  Frankly disgusted

 

PS And despite the tone of the above, I was not at school in Tunbridge Wells

[Moonraker]

On 14/12/2013 at 20:20, mark.topham said:

...

So far I have worked on Eton Harrow, Winchester, Rugby. Repton, Sherborne, Charterhouse, Shrewsbury and Haileybury. I am also trying to locate information on Wellington and Uppinham...

 

Quite a bit about Uppingham (and other public schools)

 

here

 

"The Junior OTC: Playing at Soldiers or Nation in Arms" by Timothy Halstead

 

(Just come across the article by chance and it seems worthy of mentioning on the GWF.)

 

Moonraker

[Muerrisch]

On 05/03/2017 at 12:25, MBrockway said:

Further to the above, I notice the entry for the Dean Close School memorial on that RoH website states this

 

Looks like the website compilers have filtered out anyone on the Dean Close tablets who are not also mentioned on a Cheltenham local memorial.

 

Perhaps they've done the same for Cheltenham College.

 

Barking mad if you ask me - I was at school some twenty miles from the family home and many of my schoolmates were from much further afield.  We definitely saw ourselves as members of the school's city's community, the city saw us that way too and our contribution to the community was not insignificant.  Had we fallen in battle, we would have been very disappointed to see future generations scrub us off any roll of honour site for our school's city because we were not the equivalent of "Cheltonians".  Frankly disgusted

 

PS And despite the tone of the above, I was not at school in Tunbridge Wells

 

Understood. I attended a boys' grammar. Almost 1/3 were "train boys" as we called them, from very substantial distances. The blighters excelled at sport and indeed everything: perhaps the journey motivated them, perhaps they did communal prep on the train!

 

"Hove actually"  !