High Wood Body Clearance

[Terry Carter]

Also Thistle Dump Cemetery near High Wood contains some burials of Royal Warwicks killed on 1 July 1916 at the Heidenkopf on the Serre Road. Their remains were found in the 1920's.

Terry

[Terry Carter]

Another view of my map that I compiled. The number highlighted yellow is the number of bodies found in that small square and now in Caterpillar Valley Cemetery

[Marco]

Sent to the CWGC today 26th January 2013:

Norman, you did not feel the need to give a summary of the documentation which you now presented as a "fact"?

And how does your letter reflect what you wrote:

we can and have discussed the various scenarios on this forum with no resolution to the question as to whether High Wood was ever formally cleared of bodies by the exhumation companies

On the basis of the current information the CWGC must be mad to add the suggested text on an official CWGC sign (if one is placed). But then again that would probably be used as new ammo against the CWGC for denying the fallen a decent burial, credit, etc.

[Terry Carter]

The following are some of the names give in the Graves Registration register for Caterpillar Valley Cemetery. The majority of bodies found during the clearances were Unknown with just a trench map reference. Below are some of the details I listed down as they were written in the register.

I will add some more later

Terry

4A 1.2 ARGYLL & SUTHERLAND HIGHLANDER X 5 UNKNOWNS

4A 1.4 ROYAL FUSILIER X 2 UNKNOWN

4A 5.6 5958 F J WOOD 20TH ROYAL FUSILIERS

4A 7.3 KENWORTHY 6 KOSB ?

4A 7.3 LISBOWMAN ROYAL FUSILIERS ?

4B 0.6 BIRCHFIELD J 7 COLT (sic)

4b 1.5 LEACH 21953 ESSEX

4B 1.5 COX 3080 17 LONDON

4B 2.2 CLOUGH 33651 22 MANCHESTER

4B 6.0 MELLIS 1194 BLACK WATCH

4B 9.1 HIPKISS 3588 KRR

4B 9.1 HOYLE 19972 KRR

4B 9.1 MARSHALL 3735 CAMERON HIGHLANDER

4B 9.1 DAYKIN 2411 KRR

4B 9.1 BARNES H 28434 KRR

4B 9.1 WOODEN 14833 ROYAL SUSSEX

4B 9.1 COLEMAN 1590 4 SUFFOLK

4B 9.2 FOWLER 3361 CAMERON HIGHLANDER

4C 1.2 ROYAL WEST KENT UNKNOWN

4C 1.2 R W KENT. E.H.S MARKED ON WATERPROOF (plot 5 row c caterpillar valley cem)

4C 1.7 G W GRAY 2833 GORDON HIGHLANDER

4C 1.7 W HAYCOCK 6115 SOUTH STAFFS

4C 2.5 AMLTAM ? (sic) 3292 9 HIGHLAND LIGHT INF

4C 2.6 3 UBS (unknown British Soldier) IN GRAVE

4C 2.6 7 UBS IN GRAVE

4C 2.6 UBS ROYAL WELSH FUSILIER

4C 2.6 UBS ROYAL WELSH FUSILIER

4C 2.6 UBS 17 LONDON 15/9/16 X 7 IN GRAVE

4C 3.1 GREENHALGH 102781 178 COY R.E.

4C 3.3 UBS HIGHLAND LIGHT INF

4C 3.3 DOWSON C/1436 16 KRR

4C 3.7 UBS (REMAINS HAD SHOULDER NUMERALS OF HOWE BN. ROYAL NAVAL DIV.)

4C 4.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 4.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 4.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 4.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 4.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 4.8 WHEATLEY 1229 16 KRRC

4C 4.8 HOWET C/429 KRRC

4C 4.9 F CEFEN (sic) C/487 16 KRR 15/7/16

4C 5.3 BROWN H 16 KRR

4C 5.3 PEARCE H 16 KRR

4C 5.4 MAJOR COOBAN 16 KRR

[Seadog]

See above;

[Terry Carter]

More names from the list

4C 5.6 S HYDE 10893 SOUTH STAFFS

4C 5.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 5.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 5.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 5.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 5.7 UBS 17 LONDON

4C 6.1 UBS ROYAL FUSILIER

4C 6.3 2667 HUGHES 3572 WELSH BW (Black Watch ?)

4C 6.5 H DAVEY 5515 21 LONDON

4C 7.8 UBS REMAINS HAD CAP BADGE HOWE BN. RN DIV

4C 7.9 WARNER 17044 2ND MGC

4C 8.6 MORTON 8869

4C 8.9 WORTHINGTON C 20 ROYAL FUSILIERS

4C 8.9 URQUART 7035 5 SCOTTISH RIFLES

4C 8.9 GOULD 7846 20 ROYAL FUSILIERS

4D 0.1 INSKIP 14547 ROYAL SUSSEX

4D 0.3 UBS FROM 28/11/16

4D 0.3 UBS FROM 28/11/16

4D 0.3 UBS FROM 28/11/16

4D 1.5 BOGIE 18118 1 CAMERON

4D 1.5 ROBERTS 1187 BLACK WATCH

4D 1.7 UBS 15 LONDON

4D 1.7 UBS 15 LONDON

4D 1.7 UBS 15 LONDON

4D 1.7 UBS 15 LONDON

4D 1.7 UBS 15 LONDON

4D 1.8 McKILLAN 109 SEAFORTH HIGHLANDER

4D 1.8 BELIEVED TO BE CAPTAIN WEBB POST OFFICE RIFLES

4D 1.8 BELIEVED TO BE LT KENNEDY POST OFFICE RIFLES

4D 1.9 DOUGLAS 6727

4D 1.9 WOOD 21447

4D 1.9 H HEATH 9245 QUEEN’S

4D 1.9 OWEN 1251 ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS

4D 2.6 SCARLETT 4977 21 LONDON

4D 2.7 DOUGALL 1 CAMERON HIGHLANDERS

4D 2.9 MANN 1 CAMERON

4D 2.9 SCANLON J 1 CAMERON

4D 3.1 REED A 26922 SUFFOLKS

4D 3.6 HIGGINS 20664 CAMERON

4D 3.7 HALE 1403 6 B N R ?

4D 3.7 NATTRESS 10781 1 CAMERON

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.1 UBS ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.2 YOUNG 3539 BLACK WATCH

4D 4.2 GREENWAY W H KRR

4D 4.5 SMITH F 7463 ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.5 THORNTON 5228 ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.6 BOWLES 4414 ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 4.7 WELLS 5293 ROYAL SUSSEX

4D 4.7 WINNING 11563 CAMERON HIGHLANDERS

4D 4.7 HUNT 2751 4 SUFFOLK

4D 4.8 MOROOMBE G 17287 8 ROYAL BERKS (Morcombe)

4D 4.8 MOORERAT (sic) 10285 R SUSSEX (James Moore)

4D 4.8 GIBBS 4884 LONDON

4D 4.9 3248 BEEP E.K.Y. ?

4D 5.0 MGC

4D 5.1 WHITEHOUSE 989 15 ROYAL WARWICKS

4D 5.1 DOLLIS 2 KOSB

4D 5.8 SHARPE W 4389 4 SUFFOLK

4D 6.1 UBS CAMERON

4D 6.1 W C ATWELL 4 SUFFOLK

4D 6.1 GAME 3272

4D 6.1 UBS ROYAL WARWICK

4D 6.6 FOWLER 9760 ROYAL WEST KENT

4D 8.7 KING 2905 ROYAL WELSH

I have names listed from squares 10a 10b etc. I can include them if required

Terry

[Seadog]

Many thanks Terry; it looks like one heck of an effort has gone into this. I of course am aware that the finds recorded in Square A are not all within the wood plus Square B would appear to be almost entirely outside the same applying to most of Square D. The fact remains that your data proves that there was an effort to clear the wood of the dead but given the numbers recorded around the wood there must still be many that still remain undiscovered including of course the German dead.

Regards

Norman

[Terry Carter]

Hello Norman

Thank you for your kind remarks. I did all the research many years ago. Yes I agree, there is no doubt very many undiscovered remains in the wood. My own feelings are that the death rate was higher on our lines either side of the wood, with the numerous actions between 14 July to 15 September towards the Switch line. I think it was more static within the wood once we had established our front line trench in the southern corner of the wood. Yes, there were attempts to attack the German line in the wood. The shattered tree trunks, tree roots, etc made it an awkward environment to launch an advance. Perhaps that why the Livens Flamenwerfer was installed in the wood and fired and digging a mine shaft to where the crater is nowadays.

Regards

Terry

[phil andrade]

The shattered tree trunks, tree roots, etc made it an awkward environment to launch an advance..

That shattered timber surely made it a very difficult place to inter the dead - a good reason for bodies to be removed to the area outside the wood, which might account for the great preponderance of the dead in the registration maps being located without the wood rather than within it.

Phil (PJA)

[Terry Carter]

Yes I would agree

Terry

[Seadog]

Received from the CWGC in response to Post 42

Many thanks for your e-mail. I can confirm that this site is indeed on our list of those at which panels will be located and I have passed your comment on to our Historian for consideration. I should advise that our panel programme runs for a number of years and the panel for this site has not been scheduled at this stage

With kind regards

Andrew Stillman

1914-18 Project Manager

Norman

[dedesomme]

Hello,

An example concerning the body clearance of woods after the War.

In 1984, during the building works of the South African Museum of Delville Wood, the bodies of three unknown British soldiers were discovered. They were buried in Delville Wood Cemetery.

It is to note that they were discovered in a area which had cleaned and levelled in the 20s and were close to the Cross of Consecration unveiled in 1926 and now in the courtyard of the Museum.

DD

[dycer]

From the History of a Pioneer Battalion,written shortly after the War's end, which served in the High Wood sector from 22 July 1916.

"Time and again,but for the judicious and skilful handling of the troops,the Battalion might have been completely wiped out.While at work,the Battalion was subjected to very heavy shell and machine gun fire every night,and the fact that the work was successfully done tells the tale of the magnificent endurance and courage displayed by all ranks.Never before,and probably not afterwards,had the Battalion been called upon to endure such a nerve-racking and trying time as that it was subjected during its fifteen days engagement in the first(the Battalion served again in November 1916) Battle of the Somme".

Whether the Battalion's dead,if they had time to bury them, were afforded a grave(unknown or named) ,or remain within the Wood I do not know.

But I cannot understand, now,after 90 years, why the "Forum" is pressing for those who may be unburied or buried are plotting "those who were buried in a particular CWGC Cemetery or not"

In 1916 the Wood was an evil place to serve as the above History testifies.

The present owners of the Wood have apparently allowed it to recover i.e, tree growth,etc but do not allow free access to the Wood e,g to WW1 Historians for their objective research or those,on the Forum, who now recognize,in 1916 it was a carnal pit and wish the MOD/CWGC to now both clear the wood of remaining body parts or just erect a plaque to the fallen who could not be recovered.

I appreciate that I can now enter Forum,with the MOD'S Indulgence.

But why does a Wood,which may have seen important in 1916 for the pursuit of war, now seen so important to those who do body counts or those who wish require access to the Wood for serious and studious WWI research.?

George

[phil andrade]

It bothers me that there are supposed to be so many unrecovered dead in that place. First and foremost, I want to know if it's true that there are thousands and thousands of British Empire soldiers remaining unrecovered in such a small area. I have to say that I suspect there has been a significant degree of exaggeration in some of the claims. Perhaps honest mistakes have been made, as so often happens with the statistics of war. Perhaps dishonest ones, too. But if it transpires that there are outrageously large numbers of my grandfathers' pals left there, then I'm not ashamed to say that I would make it my business to find out why.

Phil (PJA)

[Khaki]

If bodies are uncovered during the course of redevelopments or farming, then they should be recovered and reburied in a military cemetery, but in my opinion where bodies have lain undiscovered in probable multiple burials and there is no likelihood of their disturbance, then 'leave them be'

To me, High Wood or any other battle site is not dissimilar to naval crew who remain within their sunken ships, to disturb them is unthinkable.

khaki

[Tony Ring]

Speaking from limited experience and wearing my Police hat, it would be virtually impossible to remove any remains without taking the trees out. In the last 90 odd years tree roots would have spread throughout the ground disrupting what was left of the bodies.

I agree with Khaki - leave them be.

Tony

[keithmroberts]

I don't think anyone has now suggested that it would be appropriate to disturb the wood in search of remains, any more than it would be in several other Somme woods.

This thread opened with a query because of blank squares on the map that shows the numbers of bodies recovered, and there was some debate and consideration that the area might not have seen recoveries.

We can now see, with hard evidence from Terry Carter in particular, that clearances did take place, and that some very significant numbers of bodies were removed for burial. It is also I think proved by experience elsewhere that the clearances while generally recovering most bodies could not and did not recover all and that such woods will in their depths contain some bodies that were never recovered from shell holes and trenches that were destroyed by shelling, and that inevitably also there will be smaller fragmentary remains. There is no way of proving whether there would be more than in Delville Wood or in Thiepval Wood. That is a fruitless debate. They are all places to respect.

The original point of the thread has been addressed. There werer significant numbers of bodies recovered from High Wood, and the blank squares on the map referred to reflect either an administrative decision, or more likely an oversight, and have no greater meaning.

Keith

[Phil Evans]

George,

Having, albeit quickly, reviewed the thread, I do not see that anyone has either said that they would wish to see the wood cleared of body parts, or be granted access for studious research. To the contrary, I think it has been clearly established that there is full respect for the present owners wishes and he has been commended for the respect he has shown.

I take it by the tone of your comment on those that do body counts that you have strong views as to what constitutes historical research. Do you not think that Terry's intensive research and his willingness to share it has not, in fact, made a serious contribution to alaying the myth that no attempt was made to clear the wood. I certainly now think that we have now reached a point where we can say that "yes, given the circumstances, all reasonable steps were taken to recover the fallen and give them a decent burial, but no, we cannot expect that it was completed to exclude the possibility that bodies still lie there".

In my view therefore, High Wood, in its current form and through the admirable actions of its custodian, is a living memorial to those that remain. The CWGC has a programme in place to recognise certain sites, which may or may not include High Wood. I see no detriment if Norman feels that it does deserve recognition and chooses to bring it to their attention. The final decision belongs to the CWGC, but they should not be and are not unapproachable.

I trust that my post has now gone some way towards scotching the rumours that one of the purposes of this thread has been to advocate the re-excavation of High Wood. If I am wrong, then please point out my error, because it is certainly not a course of action that I support nor would wish to be associated with.

Phil

Edit: Apologies Keith. I had not seen your post while composing this.

[Tony Ring]

Sorry my mistake.

Next time I shall clean my reading glasses.

Its quite staggering looking at the numbers of KIA in that area.

Keep up the good work.

Tony

[Seadog]

If anything positive is likely to come from this it will be the fact that the CWGC are indeed to erect an Information panel within the London Cemetery (Post 61) and as part of this their historian will be looking at the facts relating to the accepted story that there are many unrecovered bodies both British and German still buried in the wood. The historian will presumably have access to all the available facts and documentation relating to the post-war clearances, and from these may come to the conclusion that there are indeed human remains still existing in the wood itself and it will then be for the Commission to decide whether this fact should be included on the aforementioned information panel. Perhaps whatever decision is made in this respect will bring some conclusion to this particular case.

Regards

Norman

[dalew067]

Hi Everybody,

Not exactly relating directly to the High Wood Body Clearance thread, but all the discussion therein begged the question below.

I expect that this question has been asked and answered before in the GWF, but I have been unable to locate anything on the subject.

I'm under the impression from discussions/comments in the GWF, that when the body recoveries were carried out after the war, the actual "where found" locations for those soldiers with visible identification and or tags were recorded by the GWGC.

What was the situation for those soldiers whose tags had been collected after the actions, but were unable to be formally buried in a grave before the battlefield was overrun by further actions. Obviously some soldiers were identifiable by their uniform, as a great number of headstones state an unknown soldier of a particular regiment or battalion, and others would have no means of identification at all.

So my main question is:- Did the GWGC record the "where found" location of each soldier lying underneath what would appear to be his own "Unknown Soldier" headstone.

Thanks Dale

[ypres]

Public thank you to Terry Carter, cheers for the list. JIM.

[jrhardy]

The Burial Register entry now available on the CWGC website for Francis Coyle, Black Watch 2787,(killed 30 July 1916) gives the map reference for his initial burial site as 57c.S.4.c.5.9.

This I take to be the Black Watch cemetery south of High Wood.

The record also a column for Means of Identification. His entry is GRU E.J. 57.

Other entries on the pages include GRU E.F. 70, J.V. 20, E.G. 32, Cross.

Does anyone know what these codes mean?

John

[jay dubaya]

The Burial Register entry now available on the CWGC website for Francis Coyle, Black Watch 2787,(killed 30 July 1916) gives the map reference for his initial burial site as 57c.S.4.c.5.9.

This I take to be the Black Watch cemetery south of High Wood.

John

John, Black Watch Cemetery was located at 57c. S.10.c.4.9, the reference you have for Coyle is pretty much in the middle of High Wood

[Guest]

John, Black Watch Cemetery was located at 57c. S.10.c.4.9, the reference you have for Coyle is pretty much in the middle of High Wood

It does say 57c.S.4.c.5.9, which, as you say, is the middle of High Wood. The 1/6th Black Watch (Edit also 7th Black Watch) attacked High Wood on the night of the 30th July 1916. I'm not sure how far they got into the Wood?

Mike