High Wood Body Clearance

[Seadog]

Another good idea, would you like to contact the CWGC Keith for what you suggest does make sense and if accepted by the Commission will no doubt prompt them to check their records to ascertain whether or not the wood was indeed cleared of the fallen before any such information panel was installed and if not then to include this fact.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

I'm not averse to asking the CWGC about the blank squares, but propose to wait a few days. The members of forum are full of knowledge and someone may well see the thread who has checked this out in the past.

Keith

[Phil Evans]

The detailed map in Post 19 was previously posted by Jon in this thread. He may have further info on its origins.

Phil

[Seadog]

Thanks for the link Phil, I see from the thread that the red spots on the detailed map indicate bodies found and reburied which of course will still leave many in the wood bearing in mind that this is only part of the location but it does seem to prove that clearances did take place here which is very gratifying. I still think that the suggestion from Keith in respect of the information board to eventually be erected by the CWGC at the London Cemetery is a good one and should include reference to all the combatants who still lie in this place. A rough total of numbers on this map gives 816 less the red dots which I understand equal individual finds of 55 leaving a total of undiscovered fallen even in this partial area of the wood of 761.

Norman

[Terry Carter]

That is a section of High Wood that I compiled a few years ago after visiting the CWGC HQ and consulting the Graves Registration Units original register of Caterpillar Valley Cemetery after the battlefield clearances of 1919 /20.

Around 2000 bodies were removed from High Wood and reburied in Caterpillar Valley

Terry

[Herekawe]

Hi

Can someone clarify this for me please.

When we talk about bodies as per Terry above we (being British or Commonwealth) are talking about "our chaps" obviously as then taken and buried at Caterpillar Valley. Presumably there were a similar number of German bodies lying around or temporarily buried on the battlefield - I would understand if these were just be ignored by our burial parties during the fighting but after the war when everyone was presumably trying to remove and bury or rebury as many bodies as possible what would happen to the oppositions bodies? Were parties of Germans - POWs possibly sent to remove and bury German bodies? If a British burial party stumbled on a German grave or mass grave would they mark it on a map and tell the German authorities or just cover it up again having ascertained there were no British bodies?

Thanks

James

[Seadog]

James here is a quote from the book “The Germans at Beaumont Hamel” by Jack Sheldon which may be of interest.

“Under Articles 225 and 226 of the Treaty of Versailles it was the responsibility of the Allies and Germany to respect and care for the graves of servicemen in their respective countries. Here in France , making extensive use of the labour of prisoners of war, a start was made after the war to consolidate and record the graves of the German fallen, but the effort bore no comparison with the scrupulously careful work of the Imperial War Graves Commission ; it simply was not a priority”.

With regard to what happened when German fallen were found by the British exhumation companies then I would very much like to think that such remains were treated with the same respect as our own and eventually buried in one of the large German concentration cemeteries such as Fricourt on the Somme. Perhaps other members will be able to add to my understanding of this aspect of the battlefield clearances.

Exhumation Companies

http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/clearingthedead.html

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

I'm not averse to asking the CWGC about the blank squares, but propose to wait a few days. The members of forum are full of knowledge and someone may well see the thread who has checked this out in the past.

Keith

Keith, it would appear that we are not likely to get a conclusive answer to the question of the possibility of a large number of unrecovered human remains from both sides still remaining within the wood. In that case I have drafted a letter to the CWGC for your perusal and amendment as you see fit. I believe that coming from yourself as a key member of this forum will make the CWGC treat the letter as a serious issue and if nothing else may give a conclusive answer as to whether our assumption regarding the unrecovered dead is correct or not.

CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/...)-cemetery.aspx

Norman

Draft letter

War Cemetery Information Panels:

I understand that it is the intention of the Commission to install information panels within various war cemeteries both here in the UK and abroad. I also understand that up to 500 such panels will eventually be installed, although from your website it is not clear into exactly which cemeteries these will be installed. Given that one of these may be The London Cemetery and Extension located near High Wood, Longueval on the Somme in France may I suggest that this panel makes reference to the fact that in High Wood itself which is directly opposite the cemetery and according to the available information, many of the WW1 dead from both sides still remain. You will be aware that there is at this time no indication of this fact anywhere in the vicinity of the wood. It has always been believed that there are a not inconsiderable number of unrecovered human remains still in the wood and I will appreciate if you are able to confirm this from your records.

[phil andrade]

According to Middlebrook ( THE SOMME BATTLEFIELDS ) the London Cemetery and Extension contains the highest proportion (82.6%) of unidentified dead of all the major CWGC cemeteries on the Somme. This indicates that - for whatever reasons - the recovery of dead from that sector of the battlefield was rendered more difficult than elsewhere. Middlebrook offers tabulations that - in the Somme battlefields -show that the number of unrecovered British Empire dead is approximately equal to the number buried as Known Unto God in the cemeteries. Extrapolating from the figure of 3,112 unidentified British dead who are buried thus in that cemetery, we might assume that an equal number remain unrecovered in that sector - indeed, given the abnormally high proportion of those buried as "Unknowns", it is a fair guess that the proportion of unrecovered bodies is also abnormally high ; this certainly makes the prospect of several thousand remaining there plausible.

Phil (PJA)

[Marco]

I'm not averse to asking the CWGC about the blank squares, but propose to wait a few days. The members of forum are full of knowledge and someone may well see the thread who has checked this out in the past.

I have no proof, but think the blank squares must be read as "0" (cleared or none present). The lager map of which the High Wood image on this topic was taken shows two more blank squares and no square has "0" in it. Since the map probably dates from 1919/1920 it makes sense that a few more bodies have been found since (the High wood 'red dots map')

[Seadog]

Here is the map (the red arrow is mine) click on the link to view in Flickr and enlarge. In my opinion there is no way that the two blank squares in 4 cannot have contained bodies given the numbers in the surrounding squares.

Link

http://www.flickr.co...157603237480463

[Marco]

So allready cleared? See also 8 and the one above 36.

[Seadog]

Marco we can and have discussed the various scenarios on this forum with no resolution to the question as to whether High Wood was ever formally cleared of bodies by the exhumation companies. In my view the only way to hopefully obtain an accurate resolution to this question is to be found with the suggestion made by Keith Roberts and others and my proposed draft letter to the CWGC above as without proof anything else is supposition.

Regards

Norman

[keithmroberts]

This thread has been most informative. Not least in highlighting the risks involved in drawing conclusions from too little information, or in trusting a volume that perhaps was over hasty in its conclusions for the same reasons.

Terry Carter has confirmed the clearances through his research which I regard as conclusive, and while numbers can never be reconciled, and High Wood, like Delville, Thiepval and others will undoubtedly hold both fragmentary remains, and probably some more substantial, from trenches or battlefield graves that were lost through subsequent action, the evidence would seem to put it very much on a par with those locations.

Many of us drew much of our knowledge of the fighting there from Terry Norman’s book, but it was clearly defective in respect of the burials. It is unfortunate that he didn’t provide some indication of his sources for the statements that have now been disproved.

In those circumstances I can see little point in approaching the CWGC in the manner suggested earlier in the thread, and if I did so, with no disrespect Norman for your enthusiasm, I would of course, as I normally do draft my own correspondence. I should also add that any correspondence from me to the CWGC, would undoubtedly be treated, as has always been the case in the past, with the same courtesy and thoroughness that they show to all concerned individuals. I have and would expect no special status, and I claim none when writing to them.

Keith

[Phil Evans]

This thread has been most informative. Not least in highlighting the risks involved in drawing conclusions from too little information, or in trusting a volume that perhaps was over hasty in its conclusions for the same reasons.

Terry Carter has confirmed the clearances through his research which I regard as conclusive, and while numbers can never be reconciled, and High Wood, like Delville, Thiepval and others will undoubtedly hold both fragmentary remains, and probably some more substantial, from trenches or battlefield graves that were lost through subsequent action, the evidence would seem to put it very much on a par with those locations.

Many of us drew much of our knowledge of the fighting there from Terry Norman’s book, but it was clearly defective in respect of the burials. It is unfortunate that he didn’t provide some indication of his sources for the statements that have now been disproved.

Keith,

I think this is a very precise and useful summary of the current and previous threads on this topic., although hopefully it will not be the last, as each one has teased out further information and directions in which to gain more understanding. Terry and Phil (PJA), thank you also.

Norman,

My personal opinion: Given your enthusiasm for recognition of High Wood I would suggest that you send your letter, as drafted above, to the CWGC. The idea of locating an information panel in the adjacent London Cemetery is a sound one and especially the fact that it should draw attention to all casualties. My one reservation is the last sentence. My feeling is that this should be omitted as it detracts from your principal argument.

Phil

[Seadog]

I will take that as a no then Keith (post 39) a pity as you made the suggestion about the information panels ( post 25) so I take it that you think this will just happen without any input from interested parties. Following your reluctance to approach the CWGC then I will and keep members informed of any response from them in due course.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Sent to the CWGC today 26th January 2013:

War Cemetery Information Panels:

I understand that it is the intention of the Commission to install information panels within various war cemeteries both here in the UK and abroad. I also understand that up to 500 such panels will eventually be installed, although from your website it is not clear in exactly which cemeteries these will be installed. Given that one of these may be The London Cemetery and Extension located near High Wood, Longueval, on the Somme in France may I suggest that this panel makes reference to the fact that in High Wood itself which is directly opposite the cemetery and according to the available information, many of the WW1 dead from both sides still remain. You will be aware that there is at this time no indication of this fact anywhere in the vicinity of the wood. I look forward to receiving your response to this mail.

[Terry Carter]

The remains moved to Caterpillar Valley were given a trench map location to within a 50 yard square. When I did my research at the CWGC I was only interested in finding names of men serving in the Royal Warwickshire and they were duly noted down. For example about 80 men of the Birmingham Pals whose remains were identified during the clearances found between "Black Road" and "Wood lane" trenches.

I will try and sort my notes out, I have them somewhere, as I listed down soldiers from other regiments who were able to be identified before being reburied.

The red dots on my map denote bodies found after the clearances up to the start of WW2 and these remains were put into London cemetery.

"The White Cross Touring Atlas of the Western Battlefields" gives these cemeteries, in and around High Wood :

1600 Thistle Dump, High Wood

811 Highland Cemetery, High Wood

176 Black Watch Cemetery, High Wood

983 London Cemetery, High Wood

391 Clark's Dump, High wood

Terry

[Seadog]

Some excellent research there Terry

Norman

Added: Thistle Dump seems to be in the wrong place and today contains only 196 burials and according to the BD map there is not a cemetery actually in the wood as indicated on the White Cross map so I wonder what the1600 refers to?.

Thistle Dump & High Wood from the D20

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Thistle Dump ... I wonder what the1600 refers to?. ...

Norman – the “1600” before Thistle Dump in post # 43 is the White Cross Touring Atlas reference number for the cemetery, as are the numbers before the other cemeteries in that post. They appear in the atlas’s index.

The WCTA doesn’t detail burial numbers in the cemeteries.

Tom

[Seadog]

Thanks Tom that fact was not obvious from the post. The question still remains as to what cemetery the 1600 is referring to as it cannot be Thistle Dump.

Cheers

Norman

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Thanks Tom that fact was not obvious from the post. The question still remains as to what cemetery the 1600 is referring to as it cannot be Thistle Dump.

Cheers Norman

"...that fact was not obvious from the post ..."

Norman - no it isnt obvious, and in fact the cemetery numbering in the WCTA is rather baffling in that it appears at times to be completely random - as oposed to the CWGC / Michelin maps which tend to number almost sequentially from top to bottom.

# 1600 is way off the correct location for Thistle Dump, but the page of the WCTA below the one which Terry shows in post # 43 (page 55 below Terry's page 51) shows nothing from # 176 Black Watch Cemetary all the way to cemetery #1771, which is Caterpillar Valley Cemetery at Longueval. Thistle Dump should be between 176 and 1771, but no cemetery appears in that area.

I believe that 1600 is simply a WCTA error, and that no cemetery was ever established in High Wood during 1916 or later.

Tom

[Guest]

Not sure of the significance of this, but, nearly 100 men of the 6th Black Watch were KIA in an attack on High Wood, on the 30th July 1916. I haven't studied in detail, but it appears that, over 90% of them are commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial Pier and Face 10 A. Even one of the (very few)men who DOW, is on Thiepval. 265052 A B Campbell is Commemorated on the Menin Gate?

Mike

[Seadog]

Thanks again Tom for the clarification.

Norman

[nigelcave]

According to Middlebrook ( THE SOMME BATTLEFIELDS ) the London Cemetery and Extension contains the highest proportion (82.6%) of unidentified dead of all the major CWGC cemeteries on the Somme. This indicates that - for whatever reasons - the recovery of dead from that sector of the battlefield was rendered more difficult than elsewhere. Middlebrook offers tabulations that - in the Somme battlefields -show that the number of unrecovered British Empire dead is approximately equal to the number buried as Known Unto God in the cemeteries. Extrapolating from the figure of 3,112 unidentified British dead who are buried thus in that cemetery, we might assume that an equal number remain unrecovered in that sector - indeed, given the abnormally high proportion of those buried as "Unknowns", it is a fair guess that the proportion of unrecovered bodies is also abnormally high ; this certainly makes the prospect of several thousand remaining there plausible.

Phil (PJA)

London Cemetery was used in the later inter war years for the burial of bodies as they were discovered, it would seem, within the whole of the Somme area - or at least that affected by the earlier part of the 1916 Somme battle - for example, it includes - if memory serves - at least one ID'd Newfoundlander who was killed at Beaumont Hamel. Therefore its proportion of unknown dead does not necessarily have a relevance to its immediate geographical location and they could ahve come from some distance away.