Rifle Brigade Barracks, Winchester

[spof]

I recently aquired a post card of the Rifle Brigade Barracks in Winchester and I was wondering if anyone could help put a date to it. The maker was a company called Valentine's and they seemed to have been based in Dundee. As they existed for over 100 years, I can't even narrow it down to a decade or 2 by that process. I'm not an expert in uniforms but they don't appear to be wearing the standard GW khaki if that helps.

And our very own Mr Broomfield has kindly sent me a modern photograph taken from the same viewpoint for comparison.

[Steven Broomfield]

The photos are both taken from what is known as "Short Block". This is currently the site of the Gurkha Museum and HorsePower (King's Royal Hussars Museum), plus RHQ The Rifles and HHQ(S), KRH.

The building we can see are all now private residences; the barracks closed in the 80's and as all are Listed Buildings could not be demolished. The water feature and fountain were installed then.

The site also holds the Rifles Museum (in the old Armoury) and the Adjutant General's Corps museum and Peninsula Cafe, both in the Guard House.

Anyone interested in visiting will find the complex 10 minutes' walk from Winchester Station and similar from the city centre. Opening times are a bit random in Winter.

Also nearby is the museum of The Royal Hampshire regiment, housed in what was, I believe, the Officers' Mess of the old Lower Barracks (Peninsula Barracks being Upper Barracks), in St Cross Road.

When all museums are open Winchester is a highly-recommended trip for the military enthusiast.

[Stoppage Drill]

Some recollections. Mr B will doubtless correct any error I make here; Peninsula Barracks was built on the site of the old Royal Palace of Winchester, which city had been the Saxon capital of England.

I recall it always being referred to as "The Rifle Depot."

I did a couple of courts martial there. Took Rayner Goddard as my role model.

Winchester Assizes used to sit in the Great Hall, which is about the only bit of the Palace which survived Cromwell's redevlopment. Lord Montagu of Beaulie was prosecuted there in the early '50's for a bit of 'ow's yer farther.

The rock singer Terry Dene was conscripted into the 95th at the Rifle Depot in 1958., and was invalided out for "nervous" reasons shortly after. It rightly wrecked his career,and I think he went on to "find God." Elvis greatly enhanced his career, almost contemporaneously, by completing his military service, and Dene's experience was made the worse through comparison with The King.

[Steven Broomfield]

As ever, Mr Drill is quite right (although the Courts Martial bit I have to take his word on and Wiki claims that Terry Dene was in the 60th Rifles). My lady wife (a Fawley lass) reminds me on a fairly regular basis of Lord Montague's indiscretion.

[Stoppage Drill]

As ever, Mr Drill is quite right

It won't do you any good . . . .

(although the Courts Martial bit I have to take his word on

Why don't you play that courtroom trick of "I remind you that you are still on oath" ? That way, nobody will believe me.

"and Wiki claims that Terry Dene was in the 60th Rifles)".

Ah, the Black Button B*stards ? Actually, I think they each blame the other for Rifleman Dene, or whatever his real name was.

"My lady wife"

the best sort, in my humble etc . . . .

"reminds me on a fairly regular basis of Lord Montague's indiscretion."

Really ? Why would that be, do you think ?

"Lord Montagu's Indiscretion" sounds like an Oscar Wilde play.

Sorry about this funny quoting, but I get a message that tells me I am inserting too many blocks of quoted text.

[NigelS]

Steven, am I correct in believing that parts of these buildings can - with difficulty - be made out from the railway?

NigelS

[Steven Broomfield]

Nigel - indeed they can. As you leave Winchester (formerly Winchester City, before Winchetser Chesil - formerly Winchester Cheese Hill - was closed), southbound, the back of the old Armoury, and then the long block to the right of the picture, can be seen at the top of the cutting. Interestingly, if one goes past the entrance to the barracks on Romsey Road, crosses the railway and takes a left, one gets to West Hill Cemetery, which has a lot of war graves, and (IIRC) 4 VC winners buried.

Mr Drill: the nature of my current wife's relationship with Beaulieu Motor Museum are a closed book.

[keithmroberts]

Steven

Does this careful terminology of yours mean that the next wife is already lined up ready to report for duty?

Keith

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm compiling a short list. Ms Grogan hasn't replied, but I am ever-optimistic.

[NigelS]

Thanks Steven, I remember thinking that i'd try and find out what they might be when I noticed them the last time I went past, and then promptly forgot all about it till I read this thread.

NigelS

[Stoppage Drill]

Steven

Does this careful terminology of yours mean that the next wife is already lined up ready to report for duty?

Keith

Always introduce your BH a "my first wife" even if you've only had the one and you are still married. It is factually accurate, and has the advantage of keeping 'em on their toes.

Mind you, on matters of marriage you'd probably be better off taking advice from Zsa Zsa Gabor than from me . . . . .

[Scalyback]

(face on) right side of the left colum. Looking small chaps. Boy soilders? Plus one officer in a can't be bothered pose? I think I can make a sword at the side of that figure.

EDIT changed for rank indication.

[Steven Broomfield]

Careful, old man. That's on topic.

Actually, looking closely, it appears the blokes are wearing side hats rather than peaked caps, and have greatcoats en banderole as we say in Hampshire. I wonder if the officers are doing that strange walking about, chatting and pullling on the gloves thing that they do while the foot soldiers are waiting for something to happen.

[Stoppage Drill]

Careful, old man. That's on topic.

Brrrrr ! Shudder !

strange walking about, chatting and pullling on the gloves thing that they do while the foot soldiers are waiting for something to happen.

Pacing The Minutes.

[Steven Broomfield]

That's what it's called? I was amongst those watching, wondering if we were ever going to get moving.

[Stoppage Drill]

Story is, it was introduced by Wellington, or Cambridge, I forget which, to show that the officers weren't blotto. It's quite formalised in the Foot Guards - you ponce up and down, with a peculiar way of turning about. When the senior officer tips up he starts the performance as well, so that before you know where you are there is £500k per annum fannying around the square. The first time you approach him you halt and salute, he ignores you if he's got any sense, and off you go again. At some point he asks the officers to fall in, and you try and find a niche where you'll do as little harm as possible, and the parade gets going, thanks to the NCO's.

[Wintonian]

I'm new here, but I hope that I can actually answer the question with a fair degree of accuracy...

I have several postcards with this identical image, the earliest posting date I have was the 21st July, 1905, the latest was an indecipherable date in 1915.

Valentines, in particular, often published the same original image using different printing processes to produce their postcards, often over quite an extended period of time.

However, many people don't realise that, when the original postcard collecting craze took off in a big way, in the early 1900's, Valentines (and Frith), in particular, had large numbers of glass plate negatives, which had been used to produce large format souvenir photographs in late Victorian times.

Many of these negatives were subsequently used to produce picture postcards even though the photos, in some cases had been taken 10 years, or more, earlier.

This particular postcard picture is, I believe, numbered 07141, indicating that the original photo was actually taken in 1887, or possibly 1888.

Certainly one for the uniform buffs to have a closer look at, perhaps.

The Valentine photographic archive is held by St Andrews University and, whilst they don't appear to have an on-line record of this particular image, they do have a Winchester view numbered 7097, dated 1887, and a further Winchester view numbered 7854, dated 1888.

Web site: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/imu/imu.php?request=home

[MBrockway]

Wintonian - you may be new, but you've answered the OP's question - LOL!

[Khaki]

"Keep that man on"

khaki

[rolt968]

I'm new here, but I hope that I can actually answer the question with a fair degree of accuracy...

I have several postcards with this identical image, the earliest posting date I have was the 21st July, 1905, the latest was an indecipherable date in 1915.

Valentines, in particular, often published the same original image using different printing processes to produce their postcards, often over quite an extended period of time.

However, many people don't realise that, when the original postcard collecting craze took off in a big way, in the early 1900's, Valentines (and Frith), in particular, had large numbers of glass plate negatives, which had been used to produce large format souvenir photographs in late Victorian times.

Many of these negatives were subsequently used to produce picture postcards even though the photos, in some cases had been taken 10 years, or more, earlier.

This particular postcard picture is, I believe, numbered 07141, indicating that the original photo was actually taken in 1887, or possibly 1888.

Certainly one for the uniform buffs to have a closer look at, perhaps.

The Valentine photographic archive is held by St Andrews University and, whilst they don't appear to have an on-line record of this particular image, they do have a Winchester view numbered 7097, dated 1887, and a further Winchester view numbered 7854, dated 1888.

Web site: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/imu/imu.php?request=home

There is a church spire in the background in the present photo which is not in the postcard. In itself quite unusual since churches tend to disappear from modern views not appear in them. I was going to offer it as a dating feature. I'm now just curious. Does anyone know what it is?

Roger.

[spof]

Hi Wontonian

New or not, thank you very much for the details. I now have a colourised version of the same card. It was written and posted on 1.5.18 by "David" Head of Physical Improvement, Rifle Depot, Winchester. AS the modern photo shows, not much has changed so even a 30 year old photo at the time was still relevant.

Glen

[NigelS]

There is a church spire in the background in the present photo which is not in the postcard. In itself quite unusual since churches tend to disappear from modern views not appear in them. I was going to offer it as a dating feature. I'm now just curious. Does anyone know what it is?

Roger.

Looking at a combination of maps, street plans & Google Earth, it's Christ Church on Christ Church Road. The building is shown on a 1:2500 map dated 1871, but there's no indication as to whether it might have had the spire it has today at that time, so it might be a more recent - Victorian or Edwardian possibly - addition (on Google earth the supporting tower stonework does appear to have a slightly different colour, although that can't in any way be taken as indicative of the spire having been added). Another possibility is that it was masked (the dark room equivalent of today's digital airbrushing) from the postcard reproduction so as not to detract from the appearance of the building's image.

NigelS

[rolt968]

Looking at a combination of maps, street plans & Google Earth, it's Christ Church on Christ Church Road. The building is shown on a 1:2500 map dated 1871, but there's no indication as to whether it might have had the spire it has today at that time, so it might be a more recent - Victorian or Edwardian possibly - addition (on Google earth the supporting tower stonework does appear to have a slightly different colour, although that can't in any way be taken as indicative of the spire having been added). Another possibility is that it was masked (the dark room equivalent of today's digital airbrushing) from the postcard reproduction so as not to detract from the appearance of the building's image.

NigelS

Thank you for the information, Nigel. I had wondered about masking (but couldn't think of any reason for it). The sky does look a very uniform colour.

Roger.

[MBrockway]

VCH from 1912 has ...

CHRIST CHURCH is a modern stone building in late 13th-century style, consisting of an apsidal chancel with a large north vestry, a southeast tower forming an organchamber and surmounted by a spire, a nave of three bays with north and south aisles and a south porch.

No dates unfortunately, but this seems to suggest the spire was part of the original structure.

Don't have Pevsner for Hants - if anyone does, that would clear this up very quickly.

[rolt968]

Many of these negatives were subsequently used to produce picture postcards even though the photos, in some cases had been taken 10 years, or more, earlier.

Web site: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/imu/imu.php?request=home

I was looking at an example of that earlier in the week.

A series of post cards of the Barry camps (near Carnoustie) taken at the latest just after 1900 and probably much earlier and posted as late as 1916. (I didn't check, but I had assumed that they were Valentine's.)

Roger.