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Remembered Today:

"Why We Should Upset the Germans" - Daily Mail Article


ph0ebus

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Completely understandable.

As with my own father who served on a front line Lancaster squadron and lost many mates, but particularly because of the treatment of his school friend at the hands of civilians.

I did research for the Nachtjagd Gemeinschaft (if my memory serves me correctly of the title) and his attitude to my efforts was a tad off. His rather standoffish demeaner and arms length attitude said it all.

He only deemed to tell me why he was so anti-German shortly before he died. Having found out in 1956 that his missing friend had been treated so awfully. I suppose it is not so surprising.

I don't find this problem strange at all. I well remember the first East German to come and work in my department. Very nice guy, but when you've spent years in the MOD with them as one of the enemy......... Strangely, I don't remember having the same feeling when I was a nuclear inspector in Germany and the first East German (and it was still East Germany then) came to my factory. He was a very nice guy, and to prove it, defected with his family!

The bloke we eventually got instead was a straightforward Prussian caricature, right down to a monocle. Heaven knows where they dug him up. He knew nothing about anything nuclear; he was just plain a political placement and was obviously never going to defect (which was the important point).

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I was in Oradour sur Glane last year, this came to mind while reading your post.

I must agree with what you say, though there was a noticable amount of reconcilliation and a forgiving attitude among the people of the village that had lost family or friends in the massacre of 20th June, 1944. Even toward the veterans of the Das Reich Division who perpetrated the events of that day.

I wonder whether this will help the process of healing and reconciliation, or simply re-open old wounds without achieving any kind of closure? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21261775

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Is it reconciliation with just the Brits that's the issue ? as the French seem to put it behind them in the 1960s when it comes to the Great War , Rheims cathedral and the meeting of the German and French leader on its restoration .

When it comes to WW2 everyone seems to have a touch of the vapours .

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I have worked for 2 German companies with German colleagues in the UK or over there and inevitably the conservation turns to both the wars and they are quite open that it was their grandparents and parents,and often state we can discuss anything including "Hitler" and often a colleague mentions my grandfather met Hitler from 1936 on-wards till 1944. The reaction is always the same, complete silence I think they can discuss the wars openly now but Hitler ... As my grandfather said "its not Hitler that really upset me, he was dreadfully evil every country produces them and Himmler, the devil was walking amongst us.., but its the many educated and civilized Germans that did his bidding so thoroughly and with such glee that worries me" glee was his word but he was not great with English idioms. And this was a man who adored Germany and had his wedding there in Berlin in 1922 not Helsinki. It was never the same from 1945 till his death in 1986.

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As above it seems no one has a problem with Germany pre 1933 it's the post 1933 nasty stuff that concerns most people ,may be one of the issues is that the Allies tended to blame Germany as a nation rather than the individuals that caused a lot of post war issues with blame and reconciliation .

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Germany has wandered in the wilderness (of guilt) for a long time and until that entire generation including the victims has passed away they will never be free of guilt by association. I do not pretend to understand the mindset of post ww1 Germany and as I have never suffered from persecution I cannot begin to imagine the pain and the fear of the innocents. Hate, however justified should not become hereditary and we should guard against it's continuance. In the final analysis if we stay 'anchored' to the past through hatred, we cannot move forward.

khaki

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Having gone back through all the posts here I am struck by the differing perspectives, as well as the insights and common sense a lot of people have contributed. This discussion is mirrored in a lot of places right now. The dialogue in academic circles, where contributors are hyper-sensitive to political correctness or the chance of offending international colleagues, can simply make your head spin. I think these efforts to make this a collaborative and worldwide commemoration are laudable, but in the end each country experienced the war in a different way, and why shouldn't they remember it through the glasses of their own national perspective? I think if we end up worrying about offending each other we'll compromise ourselves into nothing.

I understand the discussion about the Germans--I've had this discussion with German friends and family for years. I don't agree with the "stop banging the drum," argument. I respect the German perspective on their past, and accept it--I have no other choice, really. Theirs is a different perspective than mine. I agree totally with Mick's comment about Germans living in the present and looking forward-and in many ways this is healthy and positive, and I respect it. On the other hand, as retired military, I believe we should continue to bang the drum--meaning remember those who served, those who died, and the sacrifices made by all. November 11th is a non-event here in Germany. Why should it be? The Germans remember their dead on Volkstrauertag. Do we commemorate our military defeats? It's simply a matter of perspectives.

I do believe the post 1918 Germans had as much a culture of remembrance as we do now. I did some research when I was living in Wiesbaden on local events in the 1920's and 30's to commemorate the war--and they were frequent. As Jack wrote, for most modern Germans 1945 is day zero.

Paul

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Never mind upsetting the Germans.

What about the anti British, US national anthem, special relationship my a*** :w00t:

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Germany has wandered in the wilderness (of guilt) for a long time and until that entire generation including the victims has passed away they will never be free of guilt by association. I do not pretend to understand the mindset of post ww1 Germany and as I have never suffered from persecution I cannot begin to imagine the pain and the fear of the innocents. Hate, however justified should not become hereditary and we should guard against it's continuance. In the final analysis if we stay 'anchored' to the past through hatred, we cannot move forward.

khaki

Why should any German under the age of about 86 feel any guilt at all about what their ancestors did?

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Hello Alan,

The 'guilt by association', as I see it, does not rest with German's themselves, but exists in the minds of some non germans. I do not think it is as prevalent as it was in the 1960's and 70's when the hunt for war criminals was at it's zenith.

khaki

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Quite apart from anything else and I am quite serious about this, for almost the entire population May 1945 counts as Die Stunde Null [Zero Hour]. That is when history begins for them. That which went before really is another place.

Jack

I think this idea of a slate wiped clean from a certain date is a good thing. Only when they, the Germans, try anything along the same lines again, should the subject of the country's previous actions be brought up. The people of German today are of different ilk.

I liked the thoughts on post-war Germany and Germans written by Alfons Heck.

RichardW

......and his thoughts on Hitlerian style peoples of today.

Why should any German under the age of about 86 feel any guilt at all about what their ancestors did?

They shouldn't.

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I served with the army in Dortmund and Sennelager for a number of years and worked as a civilian all over Germany, in Uetersen, Hamburg, Cuxhaven, Eschwege, Seigen, Wittlich (the home of Alfons Heck) Trier, Russelheim, Gelsenkirchen, Donaueschingen, Donauworth, Oberpfaffenhofen, Munich, Penzburg among other towns..........from the top to the bottom of the country.

It must be said that I have a great deal of time for the German people, on the whole, and probably feel more alligned to them than any other non-British nationality.

On many occasions, the war was discussed, comparisons made between us during the war and today. More often than not, they opened the subject and having an interest and a little knowledge, I responded by adding my thoughts. It helps to be able to converse and be seen to try to speak their language, of course, but it was never a barrier.

I always found that most were apologists for their ancesters actions/non-actions.

Only very rarely did anyone have anti-British/American feeling.

The people I found were charming, kind, hardworking, welcoming, without any attitude problems about the war or what occurred.

However, there are minorties, as there are in all nationalities/religions, who would cause trouble if they could.

Its time to go easy on the Germans.....forgive, don't forget. History is littered with people who did just that, forgot and ended up paying for it.

I think there are bigger problems/nationalities/religions that we should be looking at with distrust, rather than the civilised old Germans.

RichardW

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BRILLIANT!

Haven't heard that one in years! :thumbsup:

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Some day, I suspect, when Jesus has definitely got me for a sunbeam, my works maybe adequately assessed. (..........pretty dashed good, Mr. Coward!)

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  • 5 months later...

There appears to be a misconception by members of this Forum and I'm sure it's creator and it's moderators share this view,I hope. :unsure:

Germany was the aggressor in WW1 and paid the penalty,from being defeated, both financially and loss of life.

The Forum welcomes new members, which predominantly come from UK and her English speaking Commonwealth.

What Germany did in WW1 and WW2 is in the past.

It would be pleasing,to me,if German and French WW1 soldier,etc descendants were to both ask questions,receive answers and inform the Forum,through preserved family documents ,in the Centenary period.

But alas,in my view, that is not going to happen,not because of German WW2 regrets,but because of English language limitations.

George

.

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Yes thanks for that link Martin. Gary Sheffield's comment below made me smile. Yes article was an interesting summary of his views. Regards, Michael Bully

" In a two-decade career as a public historian, putting forward alternative views on television, radio and in the press, I have become well aware that daring to suggest that Blackadder Goes Forth is not actually a documentary brings forth paroxysms of anger "

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There appears to be a misconception by members of this Forum and I'm sure it's creator and it's moderators share this view,I hope. :unsure:

Germany was the aggressor in WW1 and paid the penalty,from being defeated, both financially and loss of life.

The Forum welcomes new members, which predominantly come from UK and her English speaking Commonwealth.

What Germany did in WW1 and WW2 is in the past.

It would be pleasing,to me,if German and French WW1 soldier,etc descendants were to both ask questions,receive answers and inform the Forum,through preserved family documents ,in the Centenary period.

But alas,in my view, that is not going to happen,not because of German WW2 regrets,but because of English language limitations.

George

.

"What Germany did in WW1 and WW2 is in the past", so what does that make it less relevant today, try telling that to the concentration camp survivors. There again perhaps you did not mean it like that, in which case what exactly do you mean by that statement please?

Norman

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Yes thanks for that link Martin. Gary Sheffield's comment below made me smile. Yes article was an interesting summary of his views. Regards, Michael Bully

" In a two-decade career as a public historian, putting forward alternative views on television, radio and in the press, I have become well aware that daring to suggest that Blackadder Goes Forth is not actually a documentary brings forth paroxysms of anger "

This tickled me, too :thumbsup:

However, I am somewhat disappointed by some people and their level of knowledge on the Great War. It being able to quote Baldrick's question about how the war started........and not understanding why it is amusing :blush:.....kids of 14-15 and some adults.

Richard

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This tickled me, too :thumbsup:

However, I am somewhat disappointed by some people and their level of knowledge on the Great War. It being able to quote Baldrick's question about how the war started........and not understanding why it is amusing :blush:.....kids of 14-15 and some adults.

Richard

We use this short animated film alongside the books Private Peaceful and War Horse for primary children aged 9-11 years and they are usually quite articulate in discussion about the subject of WW1:

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one thing that I found difficult to understand is that many of the SS and Heer reenactors were from Germany were the wearing of such uniforms is banned , many of the dealers selling Nazi militaria were from Germany

Although selling Third Reich memorabilia is technically illegal in Germany, recently dealers have successfully "got around it" by sticking bits of gaffer tape over the offending symbols whilst on display. Nowadays every flea market in every big city has someone selling Nazi tat to tourists without being prosecuted for it. That said, there is clearly a FAR bigger market for it in the UK and US - which makes you wonder, and is obviously why German dealers attend these shows

The wearing of Hakenkreuz and Sig runes on TR re-enactment uniforms at events held on private land is also technically allowed within German law as it seems to fall under the defence of "educational / historical". There have been a few events which passed off without anyone being arrested or prosecuted. It's much more likely that the German hobbyists are keener to wear their rigs in Kent than in Koln as they feel there's less likelihood of accidentally bumping into their mates from the tennis club whilst dressed as a Panzer commander.

Take those things into consideration and it's not that hard to understand at all.

Many liberal Germans find the "symbols of illegal organisations" legislation rather silly, pointing out that:

1. Banning the symbols of organisations you don't like was precisely what Hitler did

2. You can't suddenly catch a dose of Nazi by looking at a Hakenkreuz

3. The existence of small but numerous ultra far right neo-nazi groups, shows that you can't crush an ideology just by banning its symbols.

As a British born German national with a lot of German family and relations, I've spent about 30 years coming to terms with the country's less savoury past and it all boils down to differing concepts of morality. The line that "not every German was a Nazi" line, although true, is over-simplistic. Whether or not the actions of men in uniform are acceptable or unacceptable depends entirely on the morality of those who choose to judge. The actions of an Einsatzgruppe would be acceptable according to the morality of 1940s Germany, unacceptable according to the morality of its 21st Century descendants. Ditto the actions of the British Army against the civilian Afrikaner population during the Boer war, or the heavy handed wet-work carried as reprisals for the Indian mutiny - acceptable and even justified according to the morality of the time, totally beyond the pale by today's standards.

I honestly don't think that any sensible German will be offended at the idea of Britain holding Great War Centenary celebrations of victory, just as no sensible Briton is offended by the annual American celebrations of victory on July 4th. The fact that our ancestors may have played parts in being the "baddies" doesn't mean that their descendants still subscribe to the same morality. The thing that unites us all is remembrance of people who gave their lives whilst doing what they believed to be their duty.

Out of interest, is there any evidence of the government actually being concerned about upsetting Germany, beyond the stuff written pages of the Daily Mail?

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