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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

"Why We Should Upset the Germans" - Daily Mail Article


ph0ebus

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Nothing the Germans of 1914-1918 did - or did not do - has anything to do with our opinions of the Germans of today. But the right-wing attitudes of our contemporary Alan Clark and his loathsome chums still lingers at the Daily Mail and in the 'Lions Lead by Donkeys' trash that we will have to stomach for the next few years.

Pete

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Why shouldn't we upset the Germans? They started it!

:devilgrin:

Bruce

Actually it was the Austro Hungarian Empire, followed by Russia defending Serbia, followed by Germany defending Austria, followed by France defending Russia. The British went to Northern France and waited to see if the Germans invaded Belgium (which they did to employ the Schlieffen Plan). Then it got messy.

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Britain and everyone else did lose the war, largely due to the USA going into purdah and refusing to accept that they are part of the same world as everyone else. We wouldn't have had WW2 if the conclusion of WW1 and the attempts to try to prevent it happening again in the League of Nations hadn't been cocked up big time.

Not quite sure of your applicartion of Purdah in that the only definition I can find is that is applies to a woman covering her face as a religious requirement.

But if it associates with the fact the Yanks did not become involved until 1917, that is because it was not a war of the Americans. Countries of Europe squaring off because they signed pieces of paper? Not a situartion for the Yanks at all. It was not until the Zimmerman Telegram that the best interests and security of the USA were threatened. And a lot of ships sailing under the American Flag being torpedoed.

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Why shouldn't we upset the Germans?

Iv'e yet to see a mention from a German, that they would be upset, only from members of the PC brigade

It is a historical fact, why shouldn't it be remembered ?

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Unfortunately you cant get away from the fact that “national traits” are often a reality rather than a fiction to be mocked by small “l” liberals. Here in the British Isles we are cursed with reputations for the English being football hooligans, the Scots being drunks, the Irish being “tic”, and the Welsh being, well, Welsh. To what degree these perceptions are true is debatable of course.

The Germans have, in the recent past, demonstrated an enthusiasm for starting wars which kill millions, and murdering further millions of civilians. I suspect that the German enthusiasm for genocide will be perceived to be a national trait which will linger rather longer than a couple of generations.

Tom

There's the problem right there. 'The' Germans rather than 'Some' Germans. 'The' English rather than 'Some' English.

I agree with you, though, that it will be quite a legacy to shake, and probably not in my lifetime.

-Daniel

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Let's get past the Mail article which kicked this off - I'm no bloody fan of the rag myself, but the issue at the heart of this is whether or not we accept the pernicious doctrine of moral equivalency in which all sides in all wars are equally perpetrators and victims, with the whole exercise always being one of futility. By virtue of my referencing it as a pernicious doctrine, you can pretty much gather that I reject the argument which seeks to impose a moral equivalency on historical judgements of the combatants of the two world wars. I particularly reject the idea that former foes can only be friends today and put the past behind them if they adopt it.

In a quote from Michael Howard I've already set out on this forum why I think the Great War was widely seen as necessary by the generation which fought it, and frankly it's a convincing argument (find it here:http://1914-1918.inv...=25#entry952365). Imperial Germany wasn't Nazi Germany but you wouldn't have enjoyed living under their hegemony. The British Empire, like all things, wasn't without its flaws but I do get weary of the self-flagellation some seem to get such pleasure in indulging in over an imperial past which was in great part relatively enlightened so far as imperial precedents and contemporary empires went.

There's two kinds of extremes amongst British expats. One sort becomes even more British whilst abroad, and compares everything in the host country unfavourably with Blighty, to the point that you'd forgive the locals for telling them to bugger off back to the UK if it's so great. The other side of the same coin is the Brit ex-pat who sneers at and belittles their homeland, the way of life there, and all who still reside in it. There's two or three with a track record for taking the latter line on this forum, and they've been out to play on this thread, with their talk of the futility of Britain's involvement in the Great War, and how she was morally no better than Imperial Germany, whilst telling us that all is peace and love today between those elements of the French and Germans who believe it was all futile - and they drip contempt for anyone in the UK today who takes a different view from themselves, tarring all who do as some kind of rabid far-right reader of the Daily Mail.

I've no inclination to argue the toss, or attempt to convert the few who have expressed such views here, but simply make the point that there are many who completely reject their doctrine of moral equivalency, which seems to believe that we can only be chums with today's Germany and Japan if we pretend, for example, that RAF Bomber Command were war criminals on a par with the SS or that there was any equivalent behaviour from the British Army after November 1918 to the behaviour of the occupying Germans in France and Belgium between 1914 and that date.

A superb post and one that I agree with in it's entirety! Well said Sir!!

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Iv'e yet to see a mention from a German, that they would be upset, only from members of the PC brigade

It is a historical fact, why shouldn't it be remembered ?

i thought the only way to upset the Germans was by calling their Mercedes a Volkswagen :devilgrin:

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And Jerry does bring a professionalism to warfare that seems to get up the nose of the DM ,who's main reason for existence is to sell newspapers ,and before this is all over I am sure there will be a little spilt milk on all sides .

As to the aspect as to was the war and the post war suffering worth while to the lads from Manchester , Bury and Poplar to them in 1914 the answer was YES ,but perhaps if you took those same lads back to those cities today the answer may be very diffrent ?

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I look upon my self as the ordinary man in the street , from a fairly poor background and an average, if that, education I.e. some contributors use words that I don,t understand and I have to look up the meaning of before I can continue reading the post. ...What's all that got to do with anything..... I think what I ,m getting at is I don,t feel I,m in a position to argue about the causes , rights or wrongs, military tactics etc......what I do know is that I,m dreading the centenary from a point of view that the media will 'spoil' my form of remembrance. I visit the battle fields when it is generally quiet and walk , cycle and pay my respects to all participants at a time when I can reflect on what happened even if I don't understand why! From 2014 to 2018 I believe The Western Front will be a no go area for me because of all the people there that aren't actually interested in any of it , pretend they know what happened but actually don't but are getting paid a good wage for doing it , For the next few years there is going to a lot of money made out of remembering The Great War and then it will be definately forgotten by the majority.....that is when the genuine 'pilgrim' will come back into his own. Colin

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I've no inclination to argue the toss, or attempt to convert the few who have expressed such views here, but simply make the point that there are many who completely reject their doctrine of moral equivalency, which seems to believe that we can only be chums with today's Germany and Japan if we pretend, for example, that RAF Bomber Command were war criminals on a par with the SS or that there was any equivalent behaviour from the British Army after November 1918 to the behaviour of the occupying Germans in France and Belgium between 1914 and that date.

But can we reject the doctrine of moral equivalency and still endeavour to be 'chums' today??

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Why not? It is different generations today - why would we need to pretend that previous generations were all equally victims in futile wars, rather than that German aggression was necessarily confronted twice in the 20th century and, thankfully, defeated?

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Actually it was the Austro Hungarian Empire, followed by Russia defending Serbia, followed by Germany defending Austria, followed by France defending Russia. The British went to Northern France and waited to see if the Germans invaded Belgium (which they did to employ the Schlieffen Plan). Then it got messy.

It would be quite nice if it was that simple!!!

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Seems simple to me we will be marking - not celebrating - 'now' what happened then, old victories, old defeats, old feelings, not how we feel about our former enemies today.

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comments regarding old Jerrys track record for frightfulness during wartime are always intresting else where has been mentioned the Saxon units killing men women and children in 1870 near Metz ,huge outcry at the time Russel of the Times and old Phil Sheridan up in arms ,but now forgetten and can not rember any issues back in 1970 when the anivesary arose , but it was shown on a German TV documentry about 4 years ago , then we have the old Napoleons boys running wild in Spain back in the day villeges massacared one town loseing 3000 men women and children no bad feeling there , unless its Badajoz and the local Spanish stopping the British putting up a plaque for 1812 , or Cawnpore with British tourists being run out of town a couple of years back .

it seems its a particular English thing to pick at the old wounds in a way that rubs people up the wrong way ?and the DM are very good at it .

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i thought the only way to upset the Germans was by calling their Mercedes a Volkswagen :devilgrin:

The sort of comment that the British find funny and the Germans a downright insult.

By the way, I for a time, shared an office with a bloke who walked back to Germany from Moscow. Then there was the guy (I didn't really know him) who, apparently decided which concentration camp you would go to.

And then a lot who are utterly ashamed about what happened in WW2 and just wish that the British (and it is mostly the British) would shut up about it and find something else to talk about.

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The sort of comment that the British find funny

Not all of us.

People who want to think beyond Hitler might enjoy The German Genius: Europe's Third Renaissance, the Second Scientific Revolution and the Twentieth Century by Peter Watson.

Gwyn

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If the Jerries have to put up winding up about the war .

Us Brits have it non stop from Hollywood , and nearly every other historian and Johnny forigner , we even have our own politicians bending over backwards not to upset anyone ,for instance the 200th anniversary around slavery ,good god they were all wringing their hands ,but was there one single mention of the good old RN chasing the odd Yankee slaver , or Arab slavers up and down the Red Sea ? The cost in RN dead over the years was over 10,000 that's based on information from the RN Museum Portsmouth .

I do sometimes wonder though how it must feel to be a German battlefield visitor either for the Great War or WW2 you must have a completely diffrent view from say a Brit or French lad , this is where we invaded in 1914 ,1940 rather than here we helped save Europe ? Just a thought .

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Then there was the guy (I didn't really know him) who, apparently decided which concentration camp you would go to.

I find it very strange that no-one seem to know any of the naughty people

When I was working on the ship refits in Hamburg docks, there was a very strong anti - British attitude from the dock workers (many lost family and friends, so it was understandable), but no - one that I spoke to was pro Hitler or had anything to do with the Nazi's.

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And then a lot who are utterly ashamed about what happened in WW2 and just wish that the British (and it is mostly the British) would shut up about it and find something else to talk about.

There's the key difference, David. We're not ashamed .... in fact we're rather proud of it and will go on talking about it, making and watching films about it, etc, as long as it pleases us to do so. Our European partners in modern-day Germany are not personally responsible for the doings of their predecessors, but they do tend to forget that they owe their modern democratic society, post-war reconstruction and prosperity, etc, to the fact that we liberated them from the totalitarian regime that so many of their forebears at best acquiesced in. As a translator, I have worked with Germans for the best part of 40 years, and I've never met one who cared to imagine what his or her life would be like today if Nazi Germany had won WW2 ...

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I have got no intention of deliberately upseting Germans and the DM obviously is following its own political agenda.

I oppose the 'Iions led by donkeys' and 'senseless slaughter' stance and what I really want from the 100th aniversary is that the case for British participation in the Great War to get presented even though I don't even accept that Germany should be deemed to have exclusive 'war guilt'.

And I don't expect any German living today to be judged for events that happened long before they were born: Just as I refuse to take any responsibility for (say) the Amiritsar Massacre of 1922, being a British chap born in 1961.

What I would really like to know from any German GWF pals or pals who are living there or who visit Germany, are there many Germans who are offended by the fact that the 100th anniversary is being marked?

Regards, Michael Bully

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I look upon my self as the ordinary man in the street , from a fairly poor background and an average, if that, education I.e. some contributors use words that I don,t understand and I have to look up the meaning of before I can continue reading the post. ...What's all that got to do with anything..... I think what I ,m getting at is I don,t feel I,m in a position to argue about the causes , rights or wrongs, military tactics etc......what I do know is that I,m dreading the centenary from a point of view that the media will 'spoil' my form of remembrance. I visit the battle fields when it is generally quiet and walk , cycle and pay my respects to all participants at a time when I can reflect on what happened even if I don't understand why! From 2014 to 2018 I believe The Western Front will be a no go area for me because of all the people there that aren't actually interested in any of it , pretend they know what happened but actually don't but are getting paid a good wage for doing it , For the next few years there is going to a lot of money made out of remembering The Great War and then it will be definately forgotten by the majority.....that is when the genuine 'pilgrim' will come back into his own. Colin

I completely agree, the more I go to some of these 'official' commemorations, the less I like them.

I have found I much prefer having the cemetery to myself.

I also agree that after 2018 this war will be forgotten.

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I must agree with the comment above after 2018 , some events that many see as highly important will not even be on the governments agenda , in 1990 whilst working in Docklands the date September 7th was not to far away so off to East London Cemetry ,the common grave for Blitz victims was overgrown and rubbish strewn , on the day it self no recognition at the site , I contacted East London Advertiser and LDDC a few noises were made and that was all , the grave site is now very much the same , so events of 100 years ago will just come and go , I had a aunt who was injured in the North Street School Bombing in 1917 , I doubt very much if the local council will be recalling such events , which at the time were of huge importance .

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I find it very strange that no-one seem to know any of the naughty people

When I was working on the ship refits in Hamburg docks, there was a very strong anti - British attitude from the dock workers (many lost family and friends, so it was understandable), but no - one that I spoke to was pro Hitler or had anything to do with the Nazi's.

Well, this bloke didn't work in my department and was getting to retirement age (in about 1974 or so) not long after I arrived. I never had any reason to know him. I was told by other colleagues - not all British.

It is a fact that by 1944 most of the German nation were sick and tired of the nazis and could see that war was going to be their mantra forever. Those who carried on supporting him were either those who were on a good thing from the war, the far right wing, and, unfortunately, the children and teenagers who had known nothing else and had been brought up in schools and the nazi Youth to worship Hitler.

The rest were terrified to stand up as they knew the penalties. Think of the film abouut the Nuremburg Trials where the Spencer Tracey character tries to question the couple on whom he is billeted on the ordinary person's knowledge of what was going on. They are still terrified to say anything. It gradually dawns on him that they were right to be terrified and this went for everyone else. Few wanted to be shot, or hanged, knowing that their sacrifice was futile.

Some did try within limits. One SS guy was found to have been deliberately sending train loads of supplies in the wrong direction by sending out orders to the wrong people. He was executed by the Allies (not a triumph).

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Can't say I agree with the above a excellent TV series by the BBC back in 1983 detailed Germans who had voted for Hitler and that covered all political spectrums and classes , there were some surprising interviews , also if you can its worth reading the Nuremberg trial transcripts where many of the small cogs within the camps in SS uniform were from all areas of Eastern Europe , I think by 1944 the only thing most Germans were sick of was defeat and the casualty lists ,and even at that point many could see the writing on the wall and its well documented that people way up the Nazi food chain were looking for a way out .

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Well, this bloke didn't work in my department and was getting to retirement age (in about 1974 or so) not long after I arrived. I never had any reason to know him. I was told by other colleagues - not all British.

It is a fact that by 1944 most of the German nation were sick and tired of the nazis and could see that war was going to be their mantra forever. Those who carried on supporting him were either those who were on a good thing from the war, the far right wing, and, unfortunately, the children and teenagers who had known nothing else and had been brought up in schools and the nazi Youth to worship Hitler.

My post wasn't ment as a pop at you, it was people in general,

The Hamburg dockers were all of an age that had lived through the war and I was there in the early 1990's, of the 30 or so that I spoke to, none of them were pro Hitler / Nazi

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