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Remembered Today:

First aircraft shot down by AA?


Martin Bennitt

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Jean-Claude Delhez in volume II of his 'Le jour de deuil de l'armée française', says a Paul Schmitt PS7 was the first aircraft ever to be shot down by anti-aircraft fire, on August 23, 1914 over Tucquegnieux on a bombing mission during the Battle of the Frontiers. Google searching reveals not a lot about this machine, though it seems to be have been fairly advanced for its day and went on to serve in a limited capacity till quite late in the War. According to Delhez, the aircraft shot down was a prototype which had just arrived in the field for trials with escadrille MF16 and was normally piloted by designer Schmitt himself and Victor Garaix, another pioneer pilot and designer, but on this occasion Schmitt's senior officer forbade him to fly. Garaix and the other crew member, Lieutenant de Saizieux, were killed when the fuel tank was hit by fire from FAR33, equipped with three guns originally for use against balloons.

Any more details about the PS7, notably performance, armament etc, and the incident, which apparently rival constructors tried to blame on a design fault rather than enemy action, gratefully received.

cheers Martin B

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The Paul Schmitt PS 7 did not fly until late 1915 and did not become operational until April 1917. It was a bomber and could carry a 330 ib warload but as it only had a top speed of 84 mph* it was very vulnerable to fighter attack and some bomb load was often sacrificed for an extra Lewis gun Only 4 squadrons used it and it was withdrawn by Jan 1918. It was based on the 1913/14 civilian Paul Schmitt Aerobus. Possibly this is the aircraft referred to? The aircraft had an unusual pivotal wing cellule for extra lift.

*And a version with a four wheel undercart was even slower

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Thanks for the extra details, Centurion

A few more details here and a couple of pictures at the bottom of this page, which gives the date as August 25, not 23. If it was shot down by dedicated AA fire (and there seems to be some doubt), was it the first?

http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/escadrille016.htm

Seems this was a prototype of the PS7. A later version (?) came second in a 1915 trial.

Recognition silhouette here

http://alsace1418.fr/2-dca-96/silhouettes/f-silhouettes-p01.html#page28

cheers Martin B

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No not a prototype the rotary engined Aerobus -see below

post-9885-0-44668700-1358429477_thumb.jp

prototyped the pivotal wing but the later Renault in line engined PS7 was an entirely new design using the same principle. The engine was nearly 3 times as powerful and the airframe was larger and more sturdy

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No not a prototype the rotary engined Aerobus -see below

Not a rotary I think but just about the first radial. Built by Salmson using the Canton-Unné system.

cheers Martin B

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In any case the first aircraft ever to be forced down by ground fire pre dates WW1 and was either a Bleriot of the Italian Army over Libya or a Curtiss Flyer over Mexico - both in 1911

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In any case the first aircraft ever to be forced down by ground fire pre dates WW1 and was either a Bleriot of the Italian Army over Libya or a Curtiss Flyer over Mexico - both in 1911

I think the point is not just by rifle or machine-gun fire from the ground but by artillery specifically for countering aircraft of whatever nature.

cheers Martin B

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An airship was shot down at Liège in the first days of August 1914. I don't have more details to hand.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The first aircraft recorded as shot down by artillery was a Bulgarian military aeroplane which while reconnoitring over the fortress of Adrianople in February 1913 was hit by a Turkish shell and fell Inside the lines. It was piloted by a Russian officer Lieutenant Nikolas. who was made prisoner by the Turks.

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Hi Martin, Centurion,

I think the point Jean-Claude is making is "due to dedicated anti-aircraft fire".

Garaix was an excellent pilot; there are references to 15 August and 25 August in several accounts. this site http://earlyaviators.com/egaraix.htm states 15 August but when you open "Career English" it states 23rd. One thing it does make clear is that it is a Schmitt prototype. Garaix was also an aircraft engineer who (had) worked with Schmitt.

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Hi Martin, Centurion,

I think the point Jean-Claude is making is "due to dedicated anti-aircraft fire".

Garaix was an excellent pilot; there are references to 15 August and 25 August in several accounts. this site http://earlyaviators.com/egaraix.htm states 15 August but when you open "Career English" it states 23rd. One thing it does make clear is that it is a Schmitt prototype. Garaix was also an aircraft engineer who (had) worked with Schmitt.

That's not what he's quoted as saying - sounds like wriggling to me. In any case the Germans had sold the Turks guns capable got firing at high elevations for AA work.

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That's not what he's quoted as saying - sounds like wriggling to me.

From Martin's quote perhaps but from the book and the context it is clear, the author means first aeroplane shot down by a dedicated/specialised anti-aircraft unit (albeit set up for use against airships). The FAR33 had three pieces specifically for this purpose: two horsedrawn, one mounted on a vehicle.

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On the "Mémoire des hommes" site it lists Garaix's death as the 23rd as well:

post-48281-0-91972800-1359903288_thumb.p

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From Martin's quote perhaps but from the book and the context it is clear, the author means first aeroplane shot down by a dedicated/specialised anti-aircraft unit (albeit set up for use against airships). The FAR33 had three pieces specifically for this purpose: two horsedrawn, one mounted on a vehicle.

And how do you know that the Turkish guns were not set up to deal with aircraft?

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No but if you have an artillery piece set to fire at the high elevation necessary to hit a reconnoitring aircraft then its an anti aircraft gun and any aircraft hit by a shell from it is a victim of AA fire. Jean-Claude's claim might have some credibility if it was 'the first aircraft shot down by a dedicated French AA unit' but not the first aircraft ever shot down by AA.

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Hi Centurion,

I realise that I have the advantage over you in that I have read the book (well, most of it) so I'm not going to argue over semantics. He mentions other aircraft brought down by ground-fire; the point he is making is, as you state, that this aeroplane was brought down by fire from a unit dedicated to firing on aircraft.

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No but if you have an artillery piece set to fire at the high elevation necessary to hit a reconnoitring aircraft then its an anti aircraft gun and any aircraft hit by a shell from it is a victim of AA fire. Jean-Claude's claim might have some credibility if it was 'the first aircraft shot down by a dedicated French AA unit' but not the first aircraft ever shot down by AA.

German AA unit, actually, FAR33, as Steve says. According to Delhez their guns were originally designed for use against balloons.

Here's Philip Gibbs on what appears to be the Adrianople incident

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1912adrianople.html

this site says the airman's name was Popov

http://endallwar.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/seige-of-adrianople/

cheers Martin B

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Hi Centurion,

I realise that I have the advantage over you in that I have read the book (well, most of it) so I'm not going to argue over semantics. He mentions other aircraft brought down by ground-fire; the point he is making is, as you state, that this aeroplane was brought down by fire from a unit dedicated to firing on aircraft.

Which is a long way from "a Paul Schmitt PS7 was the first aircraft ever to be shot down by anti-aircraft fire" as in the OP

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Which is a long way from "a Paul Schmitt PS7 was the first aircraft ever to be shot down by anti-aircraft fire" as in the OP

If you read it carefully you'll see there is a question mark at the end of the thread title. I was seeking elucidation, which I have obtained to some extent.

cheers Martin B

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If you read it carefully you'll see there is a question mark at the end of the thread title. I was seeking elucidation, which I have obtained to some extent.

cheers Martin B

Well in terms of the thread title no it wasn't. If you'd said First Aircraft to be shot down by a dedicated AA unit? then a possible maybe but it looks as if you'd already decided what answer you wanted. In any case it definitely wasn't a Paul Schmitt PS7 but could well have been a Paul Schmitt prototype. Precision is important.

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German AA unit, actually, FAR33, as Steve says. According to Delhez their guns were originally designed for use against balloons.

Here's Philip Gibbs on what appears to be the Adrianople incident

http://www.fordham.e...adrianople.html

this site says the airman's name was Popov

http://endallwar.wor...-of-adrianople/

cheers Martin B

The Popov report is based on an article in the NYT written by a correspondent who was hundreds of miles away from the action, safe in Sofia. In fact the pilot was Lt Nicholas Kostin a one time chauffeur who became one of Russia's aviation pioneers and a collaborator with Sikorsky and Kennedy (who built the Kennedy giant) acting as a test pilot for some of the latter's earliest designs. He may have been the first Russian to loop the loop. His engine was knocked out and he was forced to land behind Turkish lines where he was treated very well being housed in the Turkish commander's own home. The aircraft in question may have been an early Farman.

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Hi Martin, Centurion,

I think Garaix's plane was the prototype for the PS7 but named as such (see tail fin):

post-48281-0-55729500-1359918685_thumb.j

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