Australian Bayonets

[Strawb67]

Shippingsteel, just wondering if the origin of this "Aussie" bayonet is actually Australian issue at all, I have taken photos but having trouble uploading them and have sent you a PM.

From what I can see on the blade which is pretty worn, there is no imprint that looks anything like those pictured above. On oneside I can make out a crown over 27E followed by a narrow arrow pointing away from the handle, then on the same side but closer to the handle there is a 19 next to IX over Em which is over GW over E then right in the centre closest to the hilt there is an X.

On the other side of the blade there is what appears to have been a crown over the 1907then closest to the hilt I can only decipher a 6 (possibly a G) on the edge side and then on the channel side there is a 17.

There is no evidence of serial numbers or state markings on the handle or hilt!

So it makes me wonder whether the story of the issue is accurate or not?

When I can post the photos I will do so, and I will post the photos of the Japanese bayonet as well purely for interest, it is a bit shorter and noticeably lighter than the Aussie version!

Cheers

John

[shippingsteel]

By the sounds of it John, you have a British made P1907 bayonet (possibly manufactured in June 1917 and/or reissued in 1919) which ended up in Aussie hands.

This is not that surprising as many came back with the GW diggers, as well as via the North Africa campaign and India/Burma with the returning 2nd AIF in WW2.

I will reply to your PM and see if we can't get some photos up so we can have a closer look. It may be interesting to add some facts to the 'story' and see what fits.!

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

The history that I have of it was that it was from my old neighbour who had it issued in WW2 he was in a pioneer unit that was formed after he returned from the Middle East and Greece, then went up through Kokoda and Borneo late in the war, he said that he packed up the bayonet and sent it back with his kit when he was issued with an Owen gun and when he was demobbed that the the bayonet and a Japanese bayonet that he took were shipped home undetected. He gave both to me as I had an interest in the military that his own sons didn't have.

Anyway, I will photograph both the Australian and Japanese bayonets for you to have a look at, they are both a great item that I had packed away since I have had my own family.

So here is one of the clearer photos that John sent through to me to post, showing both the above mentioned bayonets with their matching scabbards.

The P1907 bayonet does indeed look to be of British wartime manufacture (possibly Sanderson) while the Australian scabbard looks to be Mangrovite.

Not sure about the frog. The Japanese Arisaka bayonet was made at the Kokura Arsenal showing the very commonly seen stacked cannonball symbol.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here are the closeups showing the markings on both the left and right ricasso. So certainly a British wartime bayonet made in June 1917.

It has then been reissued during the interwar period, showing the '19 and '29 reissue stamps, together with those extra inspection marks.

So on the face of it, not really an Australian bayonet, absent any MD ownership markings or D^ symbols, but still ending up in use in WW2.

We'll never know exactly how it ended up in Aussie hands but both armies did serve together in North Africa sharing supplies of equipment.

Cheers, S>S

[Strawb67]

Thanks S>S!

That is great information, from this I would assume that my neighbour probably did pick it up in the desert before he was returned to Australia! I dare say that it has seen a bit of action even if it was only opening tins!

I haven't had to clean it up since he gave it to me, I store it in some oil soaked cloth to protect it, the Japanese bayonet was in pretty poor condition originally and it took me a while to actually remove it from the scabbard, that took quite a bit of penetrating oil, it still however shows a fair bit of the original rust on it!

I really appreciate your efforts, you have been a great resource!

Cheers

John

[jscott]

Nice bayonets John - thanks for sharing.

S>S, I had a quick question for you. I seem to remember that you mentioned discussing the markings that you describe as "category 1" with Mr Skennerton at some point - but for the life of me I can't find the relevant post. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction?

Thanks, J

[shippingsteel]

I can't remember where I mentioned that Jonathan, but I do remember the discussion itself. It centered on the SOS markings found on the pommel.

I am of the opinion that these were stamped on ALL the British hookies before they were shipped out to Australia, done by the Brits when 'sold on'.

ALL the earlier prewar Australian used bayonets of British origin, having the Australian serials stamped on them, also have this SOS mark on pommel.

When I asked Skennerton for his thoughts on this marking, he believed they indicated being sold out of Australian service, ie. when leaving service.

I politely decided not to argue the point, but personally consider this incorrect. From my research and study of collected examples this can't be true.

I have seen SOS marked bayonets with provenance that have been in family hands since leaving Gallipoli (ie. they went out of circulation early)

After you look at enough examples in museums and personal collections, the data starts to speak for itself. Nowhere is this stuff written down.

That is why I am collecting information on these early bayonets, to help understand exactly what went on. See my example shown in post #22.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Thanks S>S, very helpful. Yes I couldn't find the previous post, although I did enjoy trawling through some of those old threads - there is a lot of good information in there. I think your theory makes a lot of sense, and the data does seem to back it up. I was at the army museum in chelsea yesterday and had a look at some of the bayonets there (just in case there were some more of these types) but to no avail.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

Cheers, J

[shippingsteel]

Another point which comes to mind in support of this, is the issue of the early British hookies to the Queensland Police. These are usually found in "mint" condition.

These were sourced around the same time as the other military used bayonets, but were never actually IN Australian military service. They too have the SOS mark.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Here is another bayonet I recently picked up. Its a category 1 style bayonet, made by Wilkinson in June 1909. It has the standard sold from service markings on the pommel, as well as "NSW 1415". I was particularly happy to find this example as this is my home state, and it appears to be quite a low number. As always, the bayonet is a little bashed about - the quillon was chopped off (presumably during the war), the grips have been replaced (and since then have seen more hard work) and the blade has been blued (although much of the blueing has since worn off). Despite all of these later tweaks, the bayonet never had a clearance hole drilled through the pommel. The scabbard is a later WW@-era example, but frankly Im quite chuffed to have an example of this type of bayonet marked to NSW!

Here are a few shots.

[jscott]

And one more closeup of the NSW marking...

S>S, thats a lovely Qld police hookie you posted - do you have any close-ups of the markings?

(I take it that this cant be your bayonet as I cant imagine you would photograph it on a towel like that!)

[shippingsteel]

Jonathan, that's an excellent find you have there - very well done.! I am ecstatic for you as I know how hard they are to find, you really have to fall over them.!

And the markings are nice and clear too, pity about the bluing, but thats the way it goes with service bayonets. They passed through many hands over the years.

You will rarely see an Australian bayonet with the clearance hole added ... the early ones never had them, but they were made with them later. It wasn't an issue.

I'm really pleased you have been able to find one of these early bayonets, and if I have helped raise awareness about these examples I think my job is done here.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

You are definitely right on them being hard to locate. I've been keeping my eyes open for a long time now and then recently found two (the Queensland version I posted earlier and this one) in the space of a few weeks. I will keep an eye out for the remaining states but suspect that other than Victoria they will be very difficult to locate.

I guess the best thing about the lack of awareness is that they are generally no more expensive than a standard P1907, which is nice.

[shippingsteel]

Yeah sorry, in my excitement I forgot about that QLD one you posted earlier. Both examples great to have and I will certainly be 'borrowing' their serials for the database.

I think you will be hard pressed finding any SA or WA marked bayonets. Lesser numbers mean they are very scarce, however I have had some luck with the TAS variety.!

Must be time I posted up my favourite one again in 'full frontal'. This is the 'transitional' one with both T on pommel and 6MD on the crossguard, still in very bright finish.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Lovely bayonet, and nice to see one of these early bayonets in its original finish (or close to). I also quite like it when the hook is cut like that so that the start of the hook is still visible! Funny that bayonets from Tasmania should be easier to locate than those from WA or SA, but they certainly seem to be more common for whatever reason.

Re the serial numbers - I take it that the 1415 number on my bayonet above is relatively low for a NSW model? Most of the other images that Ive seen are into the 5-digit numbers already.

[shippingsteel]

Re the serial numbers - I take it that the 1415 number on my bayonet above is relatively low for a NSW model? Most of the other images that Ive seen are into the 5-digit numbers already.

Well I have checked my listing for NSW and yours is the earliest serial that I've seen to date, so congratulations.! I have seen a few others in the 4 digits, all Wilkinsons and all from 1909.

Never mind, my above bayonet has the 3 digit Tasmanian serial on the pommel, while one of my Victorian ones has the serial in just the 2 digits. I think that's gonna be really hard to beat.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Goodness. 2 digits is good going.

Although you're going to be very upset when I post my 1909 Mole hookie marked "WA 1"...!

[shippingsteel]

No, I don't think Mole shipped any out to Australia ....

But the most interesting part of following the serials is seeing entire blocks marked to the same State, all manufactured by the same maker.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Out of interest how many of these bayonets have you seen in compiling your stats? And is the reason for the bunching of these blocks because the bayonets were sold from service direct from the manufacturer?

[Blakeley]

I recently returned from a trip to Turkey, which included four nights in Gallipoli and a week in Istanbul. I looked everywhere for military antiques, but there was very little to be had. The one thing I did find, at the back of a tiny shop in the Grand Bazaar, was a P1907 hooked quillon bayonet and its broken scabbard. Neither piece is in great shape, but as it's the only hooked quillon my collection I'm just pleased to have found it.

Many of the markings are well worn, but it appears to have been made in December, 1908, and sold out of British service. The double broad-arrow mark is clearly visible on the pommel. From what I've read on this thread so far it would seem the number on the crossguard, V2334, indicates that it went on to serve with an Australian unit from the state of Victoria. And, although they are very hard to see, there are numbers on both wooden handle inserts. One appears to be 175, and the other might be 222. I'm reluctant to clean off even the sticky labels at this point...

I forgot to mention that the top of the scabbard hilt is marked 1SD.

I am relatively new to bayonet collecting, so any information anyone can supply about this item would be much appreciated.

[shippingsteel]

What an excellent find - you've done well.! Now if someone said to me that was an Australian "Gallipoli bayonet" ... I would certainly have to agree.!

While it is in semi-relic condition, the very clear and specific Australian markings definitely add tremendous value especially from an historical perspective.

Strangely the markings that identify it as Australian just happen to be the clearest, which is fortunate. I also think it is a Sanderson maker, made Dec.1909.

From my collected data and by general comparison this would be most likely. A lot from this batch were Victorian marked at the same time. (see post #22)

I think many collectors travelling to Turkey to visit Gallipoli would only dream about finding such a piece with such strong links to the battle. You're so lucky.!

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Very nice find. I've only had time for a quick look but you appear to be spot on - a British hookie sold out of service to the Australians and issued to Victoria. It would seem the grips have been replaced and some kind of paint applied to the metal sections, but overall a rare bayonet and I for one would have been over the moon to find this in the back of an antiques shop, especially given the location it was found and the fact the quillon is still intact (which would strongly suggest a Gallipoli bring back).

I'm sure S>S will have some more thoughts on this, but congrats on a great find!

[Blakeley]

Thanks for the replies. I took a look at post #22 and I agree that my bayonet would appear to be a Sanderson from the same batch. I was very pleased to find it when I was in Istanbul, but with the new information provided here I am delighted. It will definitely take pride of place in my collection.

[jscott]

Also, I agree that you should go easy on the cleaning. If it were me I would probably just stick to some gun oil and a cloth on the metal parts.

[collectorsguide]

One to add for your data......P07 HOOK QUILLON BY WILKINSON 11.'09,WD^ MARK WITH 3 INSPECTION AND BEND TEST TO RICASSO.

POMMEL MARKED NSW over 5626 (REPEATED ON LOCKET RIM).REVERSE OF POMMEL WITH SOS MARK

. SCABBARD MARKED WITH SOS ,WD INSPECTOR STAMP ,AND '09.

Best w, Howard