shippingsteel Posted 16 January , 2013 Share Posted 16 January , 2013 When most people consider the bayonets used by the Australian forces during the war, their thoughts normally turn straight to the Lithgow P1907's. It usually comes as a surprise when they find out this is not always the case, and that many British bayonets also saw Australian use during the war. In recent years I have been collating some data on these early Australian bayonets and putting the markings information together on a spreadsheet. To date I have identified 6 different sub-set/variations (by markings) of the common P1907 bayonet, that were used by the Australians during the war. Before the Lithgow factory began production, Australia was heavily reliant on the British made SMLE rifles and bayonets for their arms requirements. Large numbers of British made HQ bayonets were issued before the war, and it was these that made up the bulk of the numbers when the war began. Eventually Lithgow ramped up production and was then able to turn out adequate numbers to keep the reinforcements supplied for the trip 'over there'. But with the Australians troops fighting in France, the fresh supply of equipment was continually required, and British bayonets were once again used. I have put together some examples of the sub-sets I have identified, and have some photos to share but please feel free to add your own photos here. Here are a couple of representative examples. The light coloured handle is a 1917 Lithgow, while the dark handle is a 1911 Enfield (Australian marked) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2013 The origin and markings classifications that I have split them up into are as follows (earliest usage first) British made HQ (later HQR) with Sold out Service (SOS) stamp on pommel, Australian serial marking prefixed with State letters eg. SA 3740 British made HQ (later HQR) with Sold out Service (SOS) stamp on pommel, Australian Military District serial with number prefix eg. 4MD 6313 British made HQ (later HQR) with Defence Department (D arrow) on pommel, Australian State marking with letter on crossguard eg. V 8951 British made HQ (later HQR) with Defence Department (D arrow) on pommel, Australian Military District serial with number prefix eg. 2MD 25820 Australian production, standard Lithgow markings, rifle serial on pommel, with Australian Military District serial with number prefix eg. 3MD 58515 British wartime production, various manufacturers, Defence Department (D arrow) stamped on pommel, no Australian serial numbers It should also be remembered that there were at least 4 British manufacturers as well as the 6 different Australian States and/or Military Districts ... So the really serious collector could go on forever trying to find an example of each manufacturer and marking variation ... but hey, who is Serious.!! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 16 January , 2013 Share Posted 16 January , 2013 S/S, Nice bayonets mate, might even add a couple of Aussies to the collection 1 of these days but always thought that for some reason they tend to command silly prices, even the D arrow brit made 1s. Then I read this post & realised it was because you keep out bidding me & own nearly all the aussie bayonets ever issued Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2013 So as an example here is one of the most common styles of the Australian markings (my category 5) with the standard MD markings found on a 1916 Lithgow. While the style is common, the actual markings are not, with the Queensland serials being normally quite hard to find. 1MD = 1st Military District = Queensland. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2013 Nice bayonets mate, might even add a couple of Aussies to the collection 1 of these days but always thought that for some reason they tend to command silly prices, even the D arrow brit made 1s. Then I read this post & realised it was because you keep out bidding me & own nearly all the aussie bayonets ever issued HaHa Aleck, no I don't think I'll ever be a problem to you mate ... you see I am pretty choosy as to what I buy and normally go for those beat-up scruffy looking old ones (their cheaper.!) I do spend a lot of time searching out examples that have most likely 'been there' - that's also where the markings and the history comes in. The dings and the sharpening are part of that. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2013 And here is the closeup of the bayonets in the OP showing their Australian markings stamped on the crossguard. On the left is the 1911 Enfield HQR with the V 36 serial. The V is the State letter for Victoria so a Category 3 example. On the right is another Category 5, being the standard 1917 Lithgow with 4th Military District serials for South Australia. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2013 This is the earliest style of markings found on the Australian P1907 bayonets, the serial with the State letter prefix stamped on the pommel (Category 1) All of these are British made Hookies or HQR examples and are usually dated 1909 or 1910. They are all stamped with the conjoined arrows SOS mark. It is the Sold mark and the Serial which sets them apart. From the left we have the Q for Queensland, T for Tasmania and the NSW for New South Wales. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 17 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2013 This is the next stage of the markings - same British Hooked Quillon bayonets with the Sold out of Service arrows stamped on the pommel (Category 2) But this time they have had the Military District serials stamped over the crossguard, in this case the 6MD for Tasmania (the MD is placed upside down.!) This bayonet is actually proof of the changeover as it has had the T serial on the pommel overstamped with the new 4 digit MD serial placed on the guard. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 17 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2013 Then sometime around 1912 or 1913 another change is noticed in the markings. The imported British HQ bayonets stopped being stamped with the SOS mark (Category 3/4) They are still found with the Military District serials stamped over the crossguard (and in the case of Victoria they still only used the letter V) but now the Darrow stamp appears. As shown in the photo below, this is the marking for the Defence Department which can be found on the pommel of the prewar examples (later the small arrow was lengthened) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2013 Having a good understanding of how and when these serial numbers were applied does come in handy when trying to work out when examples were actually used. In the photo below we have a standard wartime manufactured Lithgow bayonet with the 2MD serial of New South Wales applied on the crossguard, numbered 73395. From the data I have collected this is an exceptionally high number for a 2MD serial and does not fit in with the expected range for this bayonet's date of manufacture. From this we can work out this particular bayonet was placed in storage after production, then brought out at a later time with the new serial applied at the time of issue. So we can then gauge this example did not see any period use in the GW and its service started in a later period (of course the cam paint from North Africa is a clue.!) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 19 January , 2013 Share Posted 19 January , 2013 g/day shippingsteel, can you tell me why my 07 scabbard is painted dark green its on a hooky lithgow dated 1914. joe cruise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2013 can you tell me why my 07 scabbard is painted dark green its on a hooky lithgow dated 1914. It's most likely a replacement scabbard that has been slotted in there at some stage ... does it have a round or teardrop stud, any markings on the fittings or leather.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 19 January , 2013 Share Posted 19 January , 2013 peardrop no markings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 19 January , 2013 Share Posted 19 January , 2013 there may be markings but the paint would cover them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2013 OK so perhaps its a WW1 vintage British scabbard that came out again for WW2 - the green is sometimes associated with Home Guard use in that war. Without seeing a photo it is hard to say, but without markings it will surely be a replacement scabbard from somewhere. Lithgow scabbards have the star. I guess I am probably more interested in your 1914 Lithgow bayonet ... I remember your pics from before, nice example ... could you give me the serials.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 19 January , 2013 Share Posted 19 January , 2013 hi shippingsteel, the markings on the bayonet are 3md 2607 scabbard mouth has the number 72 or 572 joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2013 The markings on the bayonet are 3md 2607 ... Would you be able to check that number again for me Joe ... by 1914 in the major Australian Military Districts (or States) the serials should all be up into the 5 digits. Indeed, looking back into the forum archives I managed to find the photo that you posted before, and it does look like there might be another digit squeezed in there.! Also does your bayonet have another serial number stamped up near the grips on the pommel - if present this number will identify the rifle to which it was first matched. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumjar Posted 20 January , 2013 Share Posted 20 January , 2013 hi shippingsteel, if there is another number cannot see it and no numbers on the pommel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2013 Thats OK Joe, thanks for your help - its a very nice bayonet all the same. It looks like someone may have reversed the bolts for the grips when it was being cleaned up ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 20 January , 2013 Share Posted 20 January , 2013 SS, this might be a silly question but regarding the sold out of service marks - were those so marked sold out of British military service and purchased by the Australian MD's or sold out of service from the Australian MD's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2013 Mick there are never any silly questions, so ask away.! The Sold out of Service marks (or conjoined arrows) were stamped on the pommel upon leaving British service. This particular style of marking is definitely a British marking, and together with the Australian serials is the only thing thats sets these apart from your normal British 'hookie'. When I say British "service", I don't believe these were ever issued to British troops. They would have been made and "accepted" - so then they had to account for the "sale". Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2013 These photos show a nice example of what I am talking about - a British hookie made by Sanderson (dated 1909) that was SOLD into Australian service pre-war. This one recently finished up on ebay here in Australia so only now can I post up these pics for discussion. The Victorian serial is clearly visible on the crossguard. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 20 January , 2013 Share Posted 20 January , 2013 Right, thanks SS that answered my question. By the way heres a bayonet I discovered a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2013 By the way heres a bayonet I discovered a few years back. Nice one - I'd like to see you find any markings on that, ha ha.!! (Does make you stop and think though - that's where a fair share of these ended up ... c/w owners) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 January , 2013 Share Posted 21 January , 2013 S>S, thanks for posting this information. I have a few Australian bayonets (albeit none that warrant inclusion in this thread - mostly wartime Lithgow 07s) and this is a field I would like to explore more in the future. I'm currently focussing on the variants of the 98/05s, as these are much easier to obtain (and more affordable) in the UK, but its great to have information like this available online. I will let you know when I acquire my first first "early" Aussie bayonet! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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