Centenary Commemorations

[charlesmessenger]

I recommend Pals looking at the article by Hew Strachan in yesterday's Daily Telegraph and the front page report plus second leader in today's Sunday Times. Excerllent stuff!

Charles M

[Guest exuser1]

I was interested in his comments on the way South Africa may see the coming events as just returned from Natal and noted many of the town memorials in a shabby state ,on November 11th no signs of any remberance in the town I was in Dundee which had a superb Great War memorial complete with artillery , no wreaths at the memorial in Ladysmith the only service I was aware of was the one held by our group overlooking Ilsandwana .

And interestingly I took a 20 something year old South Africian to visit the Somme this year on visiting the national memorial his comments were he had no idea of his country's involvement as it was not taught at school ,his comments on the remberance book for the Freedom fighters killed in the 1970s and 1980s was interesting to say the least !

[Anneca]

I have just read the article by Hellen and Brooks in today's Sunday Times "Don't mention that we won the First World War". I was more struck by "Comment" on page 22: "Right Way to Honour the Great War Dead"

6th paragraph: The British government appears worried that celebrating victory, alongside mourning the huge loss of life, would be out of step with the times and might offend the Germans.

7th paragraph: Victory over the Germany of a century ago should not offend modern German sensibilities. It would, however, remind the families of the approximately 900,000 British and Irish soldiers who gave their lives that they did not do so wholly in vain. They won the Great War.

[Anthony Pigott]

I recommend Pals looking at the article by Hew Strachan in yesterday's Daily Telegraph and the front page report plus second leader in today's Sunday Times. Excerllent stuff!

Charles M

Strachan's one is here:

http://www.telegraph...n-remember.html

[JimSmithson]

We always knew that Hew Stachan's presence on the Advisory Board would be a positive element and this article proves that point. Is his voice enough though, to moderate the others who may have different views?

Jim

[Alan Tucker]

More regrettable stuff....

The revival of 'Oh what a lovely war' on stage

Article on Tull in today's Observer pushed as usual by that well known historian Michael Morpurgo! The journalist who wrote stated that he had been 'cited for a medal'.

Excellent stuff from Hew Strachan.

[Anthony Pigott]

More regrettable stuff....

The revival of 'Oh what a lovely war' on stage

Article on Tull in today's Observer pushed as usual by that well known historian Michael Morpurgo! The journalist who wrote stated that he had been 'cited for a medal'.

Excellent stuff from Hew Strachan.

The Telegraph and Sunday Times articles hopefully show the MSM begining to take an interest in putting a more objective view. However, the coming centenary will also encourage more of the nonsense that people like Mr Morpurgo produce.

Would anyone like to give quotes from the Sunday Times pieces? The online version is behind a paywall and it's too late to buy a paper copy.

[Anneca]

Antony, the Sunday Times main article: (apologies for any typing mistakes)

The government has been accused of pandering to Germany over celebrations to mark Britain's military victories in the First World War. "There is an intent in government not to upset the Germans" said a senior source who is involved in the centenary commemorations of the 1914-18 conflict.

The high level committee planning the ceremonies, which will start next year, is split on the question. Sebastian Faulks, author of the First World War novel Birdsong, is resisting pressure to celebrate a military victory in the way the Second World War is remembered. "This must not be VE Day-like" Faulks said. "The tone must be modest, inclusive and reverential of others. Celebration is completely the wrong note, certainly for 2014, although it might be more relevant in 2018. A degree of humility is needed, initially particularly, as this was an avoidable calamity."

Others on the advisory board are urgine ministers to commemorate at least one battle to symbolise the reasons why Britain went to war, rather than highlighting only the carnage and futility of a conflict which took 16m lives.

One member, Professor Sir Hew Strachan, an eminent Oxford historian, argues that Britain should celebrate victory and also commemorate lost lives. He said: "For much of Europe, including Britain in 1918, Germany was a militarist and imperialist regime which had to be defeated and from that point of view the victory is a serious victory. The sense of liberation in 1918 was just as great as the sense of liberation in 1945. "Germany has almost as great a sense of guilt about this war as it does about the 2nd world war and therefore we don't put ourselves in the wrong in German eyes by opposing German imperialism, by opposing the Kaiser's regime."

In a private talk given to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Strachan also warned that "the centenary must not be Remembrance Sunday writ large - and then repeated again and again". According to a leaked copy of his talk, he said that the plans still lacked a "big idea" and if it failed to move on from the "existing baggage" it "will be sterile, a waste of both effort and resourced".

Andrew Murrison, a junior defence minister who is David Cameron's special representative for the centenary events, has declined to comment on whether the government was concerned about upsetting Germany.

However, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which is overseeing the centenary events, said "We do not agree with Sir Hew's assessment of the centenary programme and his is not a view that was expressed by anyone during the last meeting of the advisory board or previously.

"All board members discussed the wide range of activity at the last meeting and Andrew Murrison has continued to discuss this with board members since then."

German leaders will attend many of the ceremonies alongside the allies. So far the draft official programme marks mainly the battles that have become a byword for senseless sacrifice and military stalemate. It begins in 2014 with the centenary of Britain's declaration of war on August 4, followed by the commemoration of the Battle of Gallipoli in 2015, the Battle of the Somme in July 2016, Jutland in 2016, a sea battle in which both sides claimed victory, and the slaughter at Passchendaele in 2017. It will end with the centenary of Armistice Day in November 2018.

The British Commission for Military History is pressing Murrison to include the Battle of Amiens in August 1918 which was described by General Erich Lundendorff, the German commander, as "the black day of the German army". It ended the stalemate on the western front and after the 100 days offensive by the allies, led to the armistice.

Major General Mungo Melvin, president of the BCMH which represents 250 military historians, said he had urged the government to think again. "We don't want to be triumphalist about it (but) to ignore this is like looking at the 2nd world war and ignoring the battles of STalingrad and El Alamein" he said. Amiens "marked a seminal moment in the First World War".

Murrison said "I have no doubt that Amiens and the last 100 days of the war will be commemorated in an appropriate way." Jean Seaton, the BBC's official historian, has warned that the corporation's centenary coverage must not repeat the mistakes made during the diamond jubilee pageant on the Thames last year, when it misjudged the public mood with its lightweight coverage. Seaton said "I'm concerned that the BBC has a metro-politan distaste for the ritual of ceremonies".

Roger Mosey, director of television at BBC said "This will not be politically correct coverage. We will mark the 100th anniversary of the First World War with a wide range of programming but at its centre will be a tribute to the fallen and a commemoration of those who fought for this country".

[Alan Tucker]

Sunday Times editorial Sunday 13 January 2013. Pretty balanced methinks.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks for updating those of us such as myself who rarely read newspapers on paper or online. Appreciated.

I think that a lot of Hew Strachan's comments were great, particularly "The plans for the centenary are still conceptually empty." in 'The Telegraph' link cited above.

With regard to 'Oh What A Lovely War' - apparently a new production will be staged in Brighton and Hove as of course the film version used many locations around the area.

Regards,

Michael Bully

[centurion]

More regrettable stuff....

The revival of 'Oh what a lovely war' on stage

Article on Tull in today's Observer pushed as usual by that well known historian Michael Morpurgo! The journalist who wrote stated that he had been 'cited for a medal'.

Incited by a medal perhaps

[charlesmessenger]

Another good piece in today's Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2262443/Why-SHOULD-upset-Germans--reminding-Great-War-atrocities.html

Charles M

[Guest exuser1]

Apart from the bit where was the sacrifice worth it well 100 years on as I visit dear old Blighty in all due respect NO , as for the German atrocities rant , well we don't go on at the old Japs any more in case they won't loan us any dosh or sell us and eletricial goods , the veterans I know who were in the Far East believe FAT BOY should have been dropped on Tokyo .

I suspect that now we are 100 years past the event and the lads that went through it and the events directly post war are passed on memories you can either paint the whole thing as a front page of the Victor comic or the every one a solider poet shot at dawn whilst officers played leapfrog ,the whole thing will be a shambles .

[Steven Broomfield]

Another good piece in today's Daily Mail:

Charles M

Not a phrase one sees every day.

[Stoppage Drill]

well we don't go on at the old Japs any more

Speak for yourself.

[Guest exuser1]

Exactly rember St Stephens Hospital ?

[hazelclark]

More regrettable stuff....

The revival of 'Oh what a lovely war' on stage

Article on Tull in today's Observer pushed as usual by that well known historian Michael Morpurgo! The journalist who wrote stated that he had been 'cited for a medal'.

Excellent stuff from Hew Strachan.

I suspect that for most people nowadays, "Oh what a Lovely War", is nothing more or less than a stage production which some people will enjoy and some won't. I enjoyed it in another life and didn't associate it with WW1 other than perhaps ancient history.

Hazel C.

[Anthony Pigott]

Here's another good article, this time from The Week:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/51048/100-years-lets-not-forget-our-achievement-great-war

[Anneca]

Good article as you say Anthony. Thanks for posting.

Anne

[Guest exuser1]

Never heard of a " Shed load of poison gas " not impressed .

[healdav]

I thought people might like to see the USA reinventing English. This os from an American magazine:

Interesting Perspective of British Centennial (They Insist on Calling it the Centenary) Events.

There is then a link to the Daily Mail article.

[Seadog]

Here we go this is my nomination for the worse "commemoration" event planned so far others will no doubt follow.

Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/08/first-world-war-kickabout-replayed-centenary

Norman

[Chris_Baker]

From the article Norman has linked:

"In a foretaste of potential arguments to come, Guthrie told the Guardian: "It was a totally unnecessary war. We slid into it unnecessarily. There were horrifying casualties. It was not the soldiers' fault, it was the politicians'." The way Europe was "carved up" in the treaty of Versailles at end of war was "disgraceful", he added.

Lord Guthrie is one of the people chosen to advise on the subject.

[Anthony Pigott]

From the article Norman has linked:

"In a foretaste of potential arguments to come, Guthrie told the Guardian: "It was a totally unnecessary war. We slid into it unnecessarily. There were horrifying casualties. It was not the soldiers' fault, it was the politicians'." The way Europe was "carved up" in the treaty of Versailles at end of war was "disgraceful", he added.

Lord Guthrie is one of the people chosen to advise on the subject.

I can understand people saying that about the Great War; I can understand people saying that about many wars. What I don't understand is why people say one thing about WW1 and something completely different about WW2 - they seem to exist in parallel worlds. You could make Guthrie's quote about the Second World War with good justification (ignore Versailles), but people don't. Why?

Anthony

[Alan Tucker]

So Guthrie would have been happy to see the German fleet on the Belgian and French Channel ports. So self-determination for the Poles, the Czechs etc was not justified. There is no direct line between Versailles and 1939. Winners tend to dictate the peace. For someone who was high up in the British military (Chief of Defence Staff?) he appears to be totally naive.