*Update* Could any one identify this badge for me please?

[wonkiewidge]

Hi everyone,

I'm after some help in identifying a regimental badge. I thought it was a cap badge, but someone has told me it might be a collar badge.

It may have belonged to my Grandfather, in which case it could be either WW1 or WW2. (He was unfortunate enough to have served in both wars).

It could equally have belonged to my uncle, in which case it would have been when he was in the National Service around 1948-1950.

Any help would be appreciated.

Linda

[Jim Hastings]

Hi Linda,

Was he a Sergeant? It looks like a metal version of the 'Gun' worn above Sergeant's chevrons of RGA/RFA/RHA (and in WW2 RA) men. Indeed a cloth version was worn by RA Sgts in my service days. What are the dimensions of the badge?

Cheers

Jim

[daggers]

I'm with Jim and suggest it was for the right upper sleeve, worn above the stripes. Another, facing the other way, would be on the left arm.

D

[wonkiewidge]

Hello Jim & Daggers,

Thanks for the reply.

The badge measures 2" x 7/8" (or 5cm x 2.2cm in new money).

It has 2 loops on the back, with a split pin running between them.

If this dates from before the end of WW2, then it seems likely that it was my Grandfathers.

I know very little about him as he died in 1945 when my mum was 6. I don't even know if he was a Sergeant.

In case you are interested, here is the only picture I have for him. Can't see any sergeants stripes though.

Linda

[Staffsyeoman]

<Sharp intake of breath comes from former TA Gunner officer..> It's not a 'gun' - it's a 'piece'. Worn above Sgts stripes, face forwards as the viewer sees them. The metal ones died away after WW2 to be replaced with cloth, which they are still.

And the photograph is not of a Gunner, it is of a soldier in the MIddlesex Regiment who is wearing the British War and Victory Medals above the left breast pocket of his WW2 period battledress. I would perhaps suggest that he may be Home Guard and that the loops over the shoulder straps are slip on shoulder titles which say 'HG' on them - rather than 'Middlesex' which it would be if he were a Regular or Territorial soldier.

[Jerry B]

Arm "piece" as mentioned, though the cloth versions were introduced much earlier than after WWII, I have a pair of the economy printed WWII version sewn to a dark blue pennant and I'm sure cloth versions were used much earlier than that.

[Jim Hastings]

As a former Regular Royal Artilleryman of several years service the'Gun' was never called a 'Piece'!!!! The 'Guns' were and are our colours! It would be like going to Warminster and telling a SASC man that The Rifle was a Gun. People may refer to an artillery piece in literature, but in the Gunners we were 'On The Guns' , and in fact there is a WW1 book called 'Three Years with the Guns'. So ... it is a 'Gun'!

[wonkiewidge]

Hi,

Do you think it's more likely to have been from WW2 rather than WW1?

The reason I say this is because I have his WW1 attestation papers where he tried to enlist aged 16 in May 1915 with the 7th Bn Middx.

He then absconded and joined the Royal Fusilers in August the same year in his brothers name.

Fortunately he was found out when his case went before the court.

He did according to my aunt eventually make it into the war, because she said he sported a bullet wound on his elbow.

Maybe he made it into the RA.

Linda

[centurion]

As a former Regular Royal Artilleryman of several years service the'Gun' was never called a 'Piece'!!!! The 'Guns' were and are our colours! It would be like going to Warminster and telling a SASC man that The Rifle was a Gun. People may refer to an artillery piece in literature, but in the Gunners we were 'On The Guns' , and in fact there is a WW1 book called 'Three Years with the Guns'. So ... it is a 'Gun'!

But is a howitzer a gun as well? I think not.

[daggers]

The 25 pounder was known as a 'gun-howitzer', as it could fire at above and below whatever angle distinguished the two. 45 degrees?

[Jim Hastings]

But in the RA and their forebearers a Howitzer would be termed as 'The Gun' just as today launcher and missile units identify their weapon systems, their colours, as The Guns! They were not termed as 'pieces', it would be sacrilege to a Gunner

[Staffsyeoman]

As a former Regular Royal Artilleryman of several years service the'Gun' was never called a 'Piece'!!!! The 'Guns' were and are our colours! It would be like going to Warminster and telling a SASC man that The Rifle was a Gun. People may refer to an artillery piece in literature, but in the Gunners we were 'On The Guns' , and in fact there is a WW1 book called 'Three Years with the Guns'. So ... it is a 'Gun'!

Well, my Adjutant and my RSM got very sniffy at anyone in our unit calling it a gun.... in the context of a piece of uniform insignia....

[tony paley]

My father was a regular soldier 1923-1953 in the RA. I have the two badges that were worn above his Sergeants stripes and he always referred to those two badges as a 'Piece' during his laters service he was an Ack IG and was extremely 'sniffy' around matters concerning the 'Guns' to the extent I joined the RAF, so as not to upset him too much. The soldier depicted in the original post hasd the badge of the Middlesex Regt. and I agree with the earlier post that he could be Home guard and the ribbons displayed could be the WW1 BWM and VM.

tony P

[wonkiewidge]

Hi Tony,

thanks for your input. You rather threw me there for a minute with regards to the reference to an earlier post about the Middx Rgt. When I went back to read all the posts again I found Phil had amended his earlier post........ Sorry Phil for missing it!

The Middx Rgt would make sense, as this is the first Rgt he tried to join back in WW1. You lot have all got good eyes, I could never have picked out the details. I supposed you're used to looking at all this paraphernalia.

Well, it's back to the drawing board with the sleeve badge. At least I'm now a little more educated and now know what I'm looking at.

Mmm, never thought about the HomeGuard. He died of an ear infection that went to his brain in 1945. My Nan always swore it was the war that made him ill. I had assumed what with the photo he had been on active service. Maybe I should think again.

....... Roll on the time when they can release the WW2 service records.

Well, thanks for all your help identifying the err uhm 'badge'.

Linda

[Blackblue]

What's his name and details Linda? Do you have a regimental number from the papers you have? Do you have his Royal Fusiliers number? Rgds Tim D

[wonkiewidge]

Hello Tim,

..... and thanks for taking the time to help.

Thomas James England born 2 April 1899 Tottenham London. Parents George & Jessie England.

The details I have are from his WW1 records.

On 6th May 1915 he enlisted at Hornsey under the name of Thomas England (his full name was Thomas James). On his Attestation papers his number is given as 4832 he joined the 7th Bn Middx regiment giving his age as 19 (he was actually 16y 1m). He was based at No2 camp Smith's Lawn Windsor.

On 14th August 1915 he went AWOL.

On the 16th August he enlisted using the name Charles James England (Charles was his younger brother's name) at Hackney Baths. The number for him here was 16844 5th Bn. Royal Fusiliers. He was based at hut no 14 Dover.

He served for 23 days with the RF before he was found out and given his discharge certificate.

He was then arrested by the police in September, as on the 8th Sept he was found guilty of desertion by the Middx Rgt.

After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between Regiments he was finally discharged from the Middx on 17th Jan 1916 (257 days) having made a mis-statement as to his age.

I had to smile at his character description: "A good boy, but too young for military service".

I found all this from the Ancestry.co.uk Military records.

I know nothing about his WW2 service. The general consensus seems to be that the photo I've posted for him shows a Middx badge. If this is the case, I don't know who the sleeve badge belonged to, as it was always assumed it was either Thomas' or his son Jim's national service badge from 1948-1950.

I'm tempted to apply for Thomas's WW2 records. I don't know how far I'd get though, going on the above performance.

Around the time of WW2 his wife and 8 children were living at 99 Wilbury Way Edmonton London.

TTFN,

Linda

[Blackblue]

Hi Linda, Great Story! The medal ribbons he is wearing indicate that he served in a theatre of war (likely with another unit) and its a shame his Service Papers were not collated together. He would have been able to enlist legitimately in 1918 or may have tried a false age again. Could he have joined the Royal Artillery and this is where the badge originated? There are a few Thomas England's in the RA in the Medal Index Cards but no obvious Service Papers that I can see. Might he also have served post war? I suggest you try and explore whether there was an 1918 Absent Voters List for his area. Rgds Tim D

[wonkiewidge]

Hi Tim,

As you probably know around 60% of the service records from WW1 were destroyed in WW2. I think I was lucky that I was able to find both sets of records.

I would not be in the least surprised if there was a third set somewhere (probably destroyed). You may well be right about him joining the Royal Artillery at a later date. Maybe this was the clue I needed all along!

I don't think he served post war as I know he got married, had 3 children and was widowed between the end of 1918 and 1927 before he married my Nan in 1928.

Another interesting twist; he married his 1st wife under the name of Charles T. England...... Aargh!

I'll have a look at the medal cards, God knows what name he might have used.

I've not heard of an absent voters list before, I'll have a look for this too.

Thanks Tim.

Just had a look for absent voters lists.... afraid this is a no goer....... he would have been 18 or 19, and you needed to be 21 to have the vote

[Blackblue]

Yes you were lucky. What about marriage certificates? If he was married in service these often list the man's regiment. Rgds Tim D

[wonkiewidge]

Now there's a thought.

Linda

[Blackblue]

Keep me posted. Would be interested to hear how you go. Do you know where his medals are? Also if he appears here in WW2 he may have WW2 papers that mention his WW1 service. I am unsure about what you need to do to access these but you may be able to as the Next of Kin? Was he still serving when he died in 1945? Death certificate may also give you an idea regards his unit? Rgds Tim D

[allen.h]

LINDA.

You should be able to obtain army records if you are next of kin.I obtained my own and my 2 brothers service records a few years ago the old fashioned way writing for

application forms ,but i am sure things have changed and that you can apply for forms on line.Hope thats the correct expression.

The forms should be sent to you,but be prepared for a long wait which a few years ago was 6 mnths plus. Cost £30-00 each.

Well worth the wait,for all the details.In my own records what other people wrote about you !!! ( CLASSIFIED INFORMATION )

GOOD LUCK ALLEN

[tony paley]

Linda,

Your further information confirms what I have said above. the medal ribbons would be the BWM and VM from WW1 indicating service overseas. the uniform is very typical of the period 1939/40s WW2 and I still suggest Home Guard. Someone above thought the ribbons were Defence and War Medal WW2. These would be issued post WW2 and the photograph is clearly earlier. If he served in the regular or territorial force after WW1 then as next of kin you can apply for the records. They are not on line and I waited 9 months for my father's a year ago, worth waiting for though.

Tony P

[wonkiewidge]

Hi,

OK every one, you've convinced me, this is what I've decided to do......

Firstly I'm going to apply for his 1st marriage certificate. Hopefully this will confirm that it is really him and maybe I'll get his regiment. I am quite hopeful for this, as he married in the last 1/4 of 1918, so in theory he would still have been with the colours.

Secondly, I've had a word with my Mum, and she is more than willing for me to apply for his WW2 records, being his next of kin.

I've seen the application forms 'online' (Yes that is the correct expression Allen) and it is still £30.

Also, I've had a bit of a brainwave. I know from my mum that Thomas joined up in WW2 with his next door neighbour. Looking on the electoral registers to find his name (confirmed by Mum), I managed to find a family tree of Next door neighbour's Granddaughter. From this I can see that the Next door neighbour died in 1974, but his daughter is still alive.

I've contacted the granddaughter to see if she knows which regiment/Homeguard her father served in...... Fingers crossed.

Thanks to everyone who has posted a reply, and when I manage to find anything out, I'll as they say..... Keep you posted!

Cheers.

Linda

[allen.h]

LINDA,

What a wonderful research project to work on.I'm sure members will look forward to updates and progress reports in due course.

GOOD LUCK.

ALLEN