Royal Engineers- Inland Water Transport

[Hollytree]

I have been fortunate that a lot of my grandfather's Charles Henry GLOVER war records have survived, so I have downloaded all I could find from Ancestry. Plus he kept some of his discharge documents..........

Service number: 150905

Rank A/2nd Cpl

His medal card doesn't give dates as to when he went to France, but I remember him saying he was there for a while. But so long ago I can't remember where. When he enlisted at Cardiff on 11th Mar 1916 he was sent to Loughmour to join the Inland Water Transport. He was kicked out as unfit by 21st Dec 1917.......and says in his pencilled CV that he was employed as a Motor Mechanic.

I would love to find out what theatre of war, if any, he was involved in, have tried to find at the National Archives if war diaries exist for this unit..........but so far without success.

I've also uploaded a picture of Charles and his comrades taken? he is middle row, far right (with glasses)

Thanks if any clever clogs has an idea if I can find out more :-)

Anne

[ss002d6252]

His medal card doesn't give dates as to when he went to France

If no date is shown it indicates that he went abroad after 1 Jan 1916, probably to France. The SWB roll shows he enlisted on 11th March 1916.

On looking further at his MIC he has only a 6 digit service number which indicates he went overseas after early 1917.

He was kicked out as unfit by 21st Dec 1917

He was discharged from the R.E on 6th April 1917 according to the SWB roll and awarded a 26 week pension. His MIC however shows he transferred to the Class P reserve on 6th April 1917 so the Dec 1917 may be the date he was released from the Class P reserve.

Info on Class P - http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm

[Terry_Reeves]

Hollytree

According to he service, CH Glover landed in France on 12th June , 1916. You will find a table giving the following information as to his movements

Home 11.3.16 - 11.6.16

BEF 12.6.16 - 2.1.17

Home 3.1.17 - 6.6.17

He was medically downgraded whilst with the BEF and sent home where he was transferred to Class P of the Army Reserve instituted under Army Order 203, 1916. The details are below:

This class consisted of men

- ‘whose services are deemed to be temporarily of more value to the country in civil life rather than in the Army’

- and who were not lower than C iii medically

- and as a result of having served in the Army or TF would, if discharged, be eligible for a pension on the grounds of disability or length of service.

Men in Classes P and P(T) were, for the purposes of pay, allowances, gratuity and pension treated as if they been discharged on the date of their transfer to Class P or P(T) i.e. they did receive money from the Army.

After a period of being a Class P reservist, he was medically discharged as being no longer physically for war service.

TR

[Hollytree]

Thanks for that, he received a pension right until his death in 1964.

But it still remains that I have no idea what his duties were whilst in France. I did see once that the Inland Water Transport were involved in driving small motor boats up the canals delivering stores and munitions to the front, but I don't have any evidence to this. He was on the motor boat "Gazelle" whilst serving...........

Anne

[ss002d6252]

BEF 12.6.16 - 2.1.17

Its odd that his card only shows a 6 digit number if he went overseas in June 1916 and returned in Jan 1917.

[Terry_Reeves]

Anne, his service record shows that he was a qualified marine motor mechanic which will give you an idea as to his role,

With regard to ss002d6252s query about his number, this is quite correct for a Royal Engineer. The new WR prefixed numbers were not introduced until March 1918, long after his discharge of course.

TR

[ss002d6252]

With regard to ss002d6252s query about his number, this is quite correct for a Royal Engineer. The new WR prefixed numbers were not introduced until March 1918, long after his discharge of course.

Out of curiosity when did the RE introduced 6 digit numbers ?

[Terry_Reeves]

Six digit RE numbers started to be issued in 1915. By the way, I should have made it clear that the WR prefixed numbers from March 1918 were for Transportation Troops only.

TR

[SteveE]

Its odd that his card only shows a 6 digit number if he went overseas in June 1916 and returned in Jan 1917.

If the man was a Territorial with a six-digit number, as I believe you've interpreted the case, then it would be odd but in this instance the number 150905 is from the 'Regular' series and the same "early 1917" date cannot be applied. The RE transportation troops (Waterways and Railways) renumbered in early 1918 to the WR/ range but C. H. Glover was 'out' by then so wouldn't be renumbered.

Regards

Steve

[ss002d6252]

If the man was a Territorial with a six-digit number as I believe you've interpreted the case then it would be odd but in this instance the number 150905 is from the 'Regular' series and the same "early 1917" date cannot be applied. The RE transportation troops (Waterways and Railways) renumbered in early 1918 to the WR/ range but C. H. Glover was 'out' by then so wouldn't be renumbered.

Thanks, a little extra knowledge to add. Do you know when the RE started using a 6 digit series for regulars ?

[Terry_Reeves]

I have already posted that information prior to Steve's post. It was 1915.

TR

[ss002d6252]

I have already posted that information prior to Steve's post.

Thanks Terry, I missed your post.

[Hollytree]

Anne, his service record shows that he was a qualified marine motor mechanic which will give you an idea as to his role,

With regard to ss002d6252s query about his number, this is quite correct for a Royal Engineer. The new WR prefixed numbers were not introduced until March 1918, long after his discharge of course.

TR

I did know that as I have his apprenticeship references............in fact I know a tremendous amount about him, perhaps my post did not make that clear, if I had listed all the references/documents I have about his life my post would have amounted to many pages..........

It's really his location whilst in France.........and if there are any regimental diaries that cover his soujourn in the Army

Thanks for the interpretation of numbers etc................

Anne

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Anne

I'm afraid that you are likely to be unlucky ascregards War Diaries. The only file I could find is this one:

WO 95/56 Director Inland Water Transport 1916 Sept. - 1917 Mar.

It's a long shot but if you are going to Kew anyway it might be worth a look.

Belgium and NW France being fairly flat, there are quite a few rivers and canals navigable by barge traffic, as well as by smaller boats. There were four flotillas of ambulance barges for evacuationg wounded, but I think the main barge traffic was in stone and wood for roadbuilding, and coal.

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

I am afraid non of the Directors diaries will be of any help in the search for an individual. If you want a general history of the IWT in France which will give you an idea of how the IWT system worked then you will find it at TNA in WO158/851. The Ambulance Barge Flotillas actually came under operational control of the Director General Medical Services, the technical control of the barges , naturally, came under the RE. There are only two RE names mentioned in the ambulance barge diaries.

TR

[Hollytree]

Thanks for those references..........I will call them up when I next visit TNA, I'm aware that there is not a chance of his being mentioned........I'm not interested in that, after all he was only in the RE for a short time, but it would have been nice to get some feel for the conditions/activities etc that would have gone on at that time. Although not a military man, his love was motor boats, engines and cars but he did work for the American army when it was posted near to Tavistock in WW2...........

Thanks again

Anne

[geraint]

A company of the 4th RWF Pioneers were working on the canals at Messines Ridge to "ensure water transportation of ammunition and supplies to frontline areas as the newly captured no-mans-land was consolidated."

The barges and boats would have been operated by units such as the Inland Water Transport.

Great picture by the way!

[Hollytree]

Thanks for the compliment of the photo! I only wish he had put the names of his fellow soldiers on the reverse. I'll keep that in mind for his location...........I suppose driving or maintaining a motor boat (the Gazelle) he would have been fairly mobile..........

I may have a clue to his location in 1916.........he saved:

"programme 3rd ASC Repair Shop (358 Company ASC) Sports, Sunday 18th August 1916, commencing at 2pm"

I can't see his name in the list of competitors...........but I could scan the pages if any one was interested. (amounts to 10 A5 sized pages - what's the best way to do this? Flicr?)

Lists names of soldiers participating

Anne

[Kate Wills]

358 Coy ASC worked in a vast industrial complex in St Omer, where they mended, rebuilt and maintained everthing from motorbikes to lorries.

Their war diary is well worth seeing if you are near Kew.

[Hollytree]

It's funny how one thing leads to another.............I have amongst his possessions a postcard of St Omer!

Thanks for that info...........

[Hollytree]

358 Coy ASC worked in a vast industrial complex in St Omer, where they mended, rebuilt and maintained everthing from motorbikes to lorries.

Their war diary is well worth seeing if you are near Kew.

Just in case, do you have the WO ref? if not I will look up............thanks

Anne

[Hollytree]

Just as an addition to this thread, I went to TNA last week and looked at WO 158/851 which is entitled History of Inland Water Transport. The mss amounted to too many pages to photograph (my sd card was nearly full) so I have just copied/photo'ed some interesting pages of the reason of the formation of the unit. Interesting, not transcribed it yet, but gives an insight to the need . As my grandfather CH Glover was at St Omer at some time I also called up WO95/4167 and that was wonderful...full of b&w photographs of the workshops, men, machinery and the vehicles, ambulances, motorcycles and pushbikes that they worked to repair. I photo'ed all of them.....

Anne

[Warwick122]

An ancestor of mine, Arthur Charles Ashburn, was originally a lighterman in Hull (his father was a lighter owner) was in the RE Inland Water Transport System and was a Sapper by rank, nr 341091 and served from 12.12.17 to 29.3.19 (although enlisted 11.12.15).  I presume he was more use as a civilian until 1917.  He changed pay level from Proficient to Skilled to Superior and was trained at Bristol.  Presumably he would have been doing something closely related to his waterman duties.  He was 33 on attestation and was posted to Calais.  Is there anything else known about what sort of thing he would be doing.  Most of his family were connected with barges and the coal trade, mostly Trent keelboats and engaged in and out of Hull or Doncaster, and some took part in the annual keelboat regattas.

[Ian Robert Smith]

On 07/01/2013 at 12:37, Hollytree said:

I have been fortunate that a lot of my grandfather's Charles Henry GLOVER war records have survived, so I have downloaded all I could find from Ancestry. Plus he kept some of his discharge documents..........

Service number: 150905

Rank A/2nd Cpl

His medal card doesn't give dates as to when he went to France, but I remember him saying he was there for a while. But so long ago I can't remember where. When he enlisted at Cardiff on 11th Mar 1916 he was sent to Loughmour to join the Inland Water Transport. He was kicked out as unfit by 21st Dec 1917.......and says in his pencilled CV that he was employed as a Motor Mechanic.

I would love to find out what theatre of war, if any, he was involved in, have tried to find at the National Archives if war diaries exist for this unit..........but so far without success.

I've also uploaded a picture of Charles and his comrades taken? he is middle row, far right (with glasses)

Thanks if any clever clogs has an idea if I can find out more :-)

Anne

 

[Ian Robert Smith]

I am in the process of tracing my family history and have a record of my Grandfather, Joseph John Smith. He served in the Royal Engineers Waterways Division and his service number was WR/328806.  Unfortunately I have no photos of him although there is a family resemblance to the gentleman sitting fornt row, second from the left.

I understand that Joseph John  took part in digging the tunnels in Arras, France where he was gassed. He was shipped back home but was given blankets that were contaminated with cholera and he died in Rochester, Kent. He is buried in Fort Pitt Military cemetery. Rochester.

Do you have any record of who the soldiers are in the photo?

JJ Smith War record0001.pdf