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Krithia

Lieutenant Waldren of "Walden's Point"

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Krithia

Here is an interesting challenge that has failed me so far ...

Walden or Waldon Point is suspose to be named as a white european Maori Contingent officer named Lieutenant Waldren (note the misspelling). Waldren is mentioned in the Maoris In The Great War book as being killed at the Apex on 8 August whilst taking his machine gun forward. He was killed alongside Private Donald Ferris, who is today buried in Embarkation Cemetery.

The Maoris were in the thick of it here, and in common with their pakeha comrades lost heavily. It was the most deadly yet the most glorious day of the campaign, glorious because of the countless deeds of valour and self-sacrifice that attended the splendid lost-endeavour. The episode of the Maori machine-gun taken up the ridge is worthy of record on canvas by some great artist; it is a subject for an understanding battle painter like the artist of “Rorke's Drift” and “The Roll Call.” Lieut. Waldren, a pakeha officer of the Contingent, had a machine-gun taken up the hill with great difficulty. When it was set up a heavy fire was concentrated on it by the Turks, higher up the range, and one after another of the crew was shot down. Lieut. Waldren was shot dead while working the gun. Corporal Ferris took his place and he also was shot down. A bullet was the certain fate of any man who attempted to use the gun, and Maori after Maori was hit until seven men were wounded. Then anyone operating the machine-gun had to crawl cautiously up and work it lying down. At last the gun, the only one on this flank, had to be withdrawn. (The Maoris In the Great War, p.46)

The question is, who was the mysterious Lieutenant Waldren as I cannot find a casualty listing for him, or even his name in the embarkation papers. Any help identifying this brave warrior would be appreciated.

Thanks, Krithia

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michaeldr

Steve,

You've got yourself a good puzzle here; I too have checked the usual places but can't find a NZ chap to fit

I wonder if it was not perhaps an Australian?

In post no.6 here

Tim says “My grandfather served with the 4th Field Ambulance AIF throughout the Gallipoli Campaign and his diaries are full of their time at Walden Grove (also known as Walden/Waldon Point) which was established during the August offensives.”

Did the place have that same name before August and the arrival of the 4th FA?

Or did they actually name it when they arrived in August?

The Australians had a Chaplain Walden: see http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=8399625 who might have been there (albeit, briefly)

Looking forward to the in-put from down-under

Michael

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michaeldr

Here is an interesting challenge that has failed me so far ...

Walden or Waldon Point is suspose to be named as a white european Maori Contingent officer named Lieutenant Waldren (note the misspelling). Waldren is mentioned in the Maoris In The Great War book as being killed at the Apex on 8 August whilst taking his machine gun forward. He was killed alongside Private Donald Ferris, who is today buried in Embarkation Cemetery.

The Maoris were in the thick of it here, and in common with their pakeha comrades lost heavily. It was the most deadly yet the most glorious day of the campaign, glorious because of the countless deeds of valour and self-sacrifice that attended the splendid lost-endeavour. The episode of the Maori machine-gun taken up the ridge is worthy of record on canvas by some great artist; it is a subject for an understanding battle painter like the artist of “Rorke's Drift” and “The Roll Call.” Lieut. Waldren, a pakeha officer of the Contingent, had a machine-gun taken up the hill with great difficulty. When it was set up a heavy fire was concentrated on it by the Turks, higher up the range, and one after another of the crew was shot down. Lieut. Waldren was shot dead while working the gun. Corporal Ferris took his place and he also was shot down. A bullet was the certain fate of any man who attempted to use the gun, and Maori after Maori was hit until seven men were wounded. Then anyone operating the machine-gun had to crawl cautiously up and work it lying down. At last the gun, the only one on this flank, had to be withdrawn. (The Maoris In the Great War, p.46)

The question is, who was the mysterious Lieutenant Waldren as I cannot find a casualty listing for him, or even his name in the embarkation papers. Any help identifying this brave warrior would be appreciated.

Thanks, Krithia

There's a further ref to Waldren on page 47

“Captain Peter Buck describing the day's work as he experienced it, wrote in his diary:—

“August 8th (Sunday).—Snatched a few winks of sleep and moved up the valley at 2 a.m. The infantry had passed Table Top and Rhododendron Hill and on to the region of Chunuk Bair. Went up gully and rested for a while at the foot of the hill. A Turkish overcoat came in very handy, as it was very cold. Went up the hill in the early morning. Passed the Otago Aid Post, then an Indian mountain battery, getting busy. We established an aid post in a watercourse at the side of the track. Our men were a little higher up, waiting to go into the firing line. One machine-gun section with us was put on the ridge, and the Turks got on to it. European officer, Waldren, and Ferris were killed and seven were wounded Dressed most of them at our station. Some were wounded by shrapnel... ... ”

However, Waldren does not appear in the index nor on the Roll of Honour

[Ferris' record can be seen here
]

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michaeldr

Along with Ferris, the same cemetery holds

HASTINGS, NORMAN FREDERICK

Rank: Major Service No: 11/61 Date of Death: 09/08/1915 Age: 35 Regiment/Service: Wellington Mounted Rifles, N.Z.E.F. Awards: D S O Grave Reference Sp. Mem. B. 26. Cemetery EMBARKATION PIER CEMETERY

Additional Information: Son of Frederick and Fanny Hastings; husband of Hilda May Hastings, of 83, Hutt Rd., Petone, New Zealand. Served in the South African War.

R W Waker in his 'To What End Did They Die? Officers Died at Gallipoli' has the following on this officer;

“In May 1915 he took part in the scouting of the territory to the North of Anzac and at the end of the month was involved in the fighting at No.3 Outpost. He was mortally wounded near the summit of Chunuk Bair in the fierce fighting of the 9th August.”

Does this not sound just a little like [From: http://nzetc.victori...aiNewZ-b6.html ]

Walden's Point.—North of Taylor's Hollow. Waldren, whose name was always mis-spelt “Walden,” was a very daring sniper who did much reconnoitering on the Suvla Flats as a machine gun officer of the Maoris. He was killed on the Apex."

It seems a sort of similar story to me

however, how you get to Walden from Hastings is not at all clear

edit: Where are all our Kiwi experts when you need them?

Edited by michaeldr

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michaeldr

Steve,

Perhaps the NZ Pals will spot this tonight and then give you some real help

however, until they come along I will continue, for the time being, to pursue the above idea (or is it a flight of fancy?)

Hastings had been active in the area north of Anzac; from http://nzetc.victori...body-d1-d7.html

“An advance under Captain Hastings was made along the ridge, and heavy fire was brought to bear on the Turks, followed up with the bayonet. This proved most effective, and broke the Turkish onrush, and the enemy gradually withdrew back to No. 3 post.”

and

“Another officer who performed most useful and hazardous work during these operations was Captain Hastings, who had closely reconnoitred the enemy's position and furnished a most accurate report on the situation, which proved of great value. He, also, was mortally wounded in August at Chunuk Bair.”

In the account of the August offensive we find

“Meanwhile the two Maori platoons, under Captain Hastings had marched up Chailak Dere. They had assisted in capturing the trenches m Chambers' or "Old No. 3 Post," wherein they took some prisoners on the northern end of the position”

“Early in the morning of the 7th August it was observed that the enemy still held Point 971—Chunuk Bair Ridge—which the troops under General Johnston were preparing to attack. A second force under General Cox were to attack on their left... .. .. .During the morning the 6th Squadron rejoined the W.M.R., also Captain Hastings with his two platoons of Maoris.”

Later

“In his report to Headquarters of the N.Z.M.R. Brigade sub-sequent to the operations, Lieut.-Colonel Meldrum stated:—

I cannot speak too highly of the very spirited and determined conduct of all ranks of the W.M.R. during the twenty-four hours. I have specially recommended in my report as O.C. Chunuk Bair Post, to the O.C. New Zealand Infantry Brigade, the following officers and non-commissioned officers of the W.M.R., viz.:—

For special mention: ... ... ... Captain N. F. Hastings (wounded) ... ... ... “

Finally we see

“Close on the top of the Ridge, which overlooked the Chunuk Bair trenches, a distinguished officer of the W.M.R. lay—it was Major Hastings, his leg shattered by a bomb. His condition was desperate, and further prompt treatment for him on the hospital ship was essential to fortify the faint hope of saving his life. Two volunteers promptly offered to assist the stretcher-bearers by carrying the fast-sinking officer to the Beach, and the journey was accomplished with some difficulty through the packed mass of suffering humanity. The admittance of the officer to the clearing station closed a most brilliant career, for nothing further has been heard of him, except that his good work had been rewarded by a D.S.O. and the Legion of Honour.”

This officer, who was earlier active north of Anzac, was fighting with two platoons of Maoris in August, and must be a candidate for the mysterious 'Waldren' sic

How do you get from Hastings to Waldren?

Possibly via a nick-name – was Hastings perhaps known as 'Warren' (after Warren Hastings 1732-1818). Warren could easily become Waldon/Walden/Waldren, or whatever. Look at the way some other Gallipoli names have come down to us eg Jephsons

Good luck with the puzzle

Michael

edit to add: Hastings' DSO appeared in London Gazette Issue 29438 published on the 11 January 1916 and his Croix de Chevalier of the LoH appeared in the London Gazette Issue 29486 published on the 22 February 1916

Edited by michaeldr

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michaeldr

This map and text are from the same book used earlier - http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH1-Moun-t1-body-d1-d11.html

MapNZ8to9Aug1915ChunukBaircopy.jpg

Quote:

“The trenches occupied by the W.M.R. were found to be shallow and narrow, but the C.O. made the utmost use of the limited time at his disposal during the night by keeping his command busy digging them deeper and adding new ones till dawn.

In the meantime, under General Johnston's orders, six machine guns were sent up the hill by Captain Wallingford, but as there were no teams sent to work them the guns were never used.”

I wonder if this latter statement is correct (the guns were never used)? Might this not account for the MGs used by the Maoris, who I think were originally Pioneers – any comments anyone?

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michaeldr

Further thoughts & reading on this make me wonder if the quote in Steve's OP is not a composite, made up from more than one character.

For the Officer with the Maoris and possibly the Machine Guns we have Hastings

who also did some fighting in the area north of Anzac. He was killed in the action described, but 1 day later.

For a soldier who might match much (though not all) of one of the other quote

[From: http://nzetc.victori...aiNewZ-b6.html ]

Walden's Point.—North of Taylor's Hollow. Waldren, whose name was always mis-spelt “Walden,” was a very daring sniper who did much reconnoitering on the Suvla Flats as a machine gun officer of the Maoris. He was killed on the Apex."

I can suggest this man

WARDEN, COLIN AIRLIE

Rank: Private

Service No: 12/1114

Date of Death: 08/08/1915

Age: 27

Regiment/Service: Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F.

Panel Reference 11.

Memorial CHUNUK BAIR (NEW ZEALAND) MEMORIAL

Additional Information: Son of Amy Lissetie Warden, of Malna, Neutral Bay, Sydney, Australia, and the late Arthur Airlie Warden. Also served in Samoa.

From http://nzetc.victori...1-body-d10.html

“The country over which the advance was to take place was extremely rough. There were no good maps of it to be had anywhere. Aeroplane reconnaissance was only in its infancy. It was not easy or even possible for the greatest scouts to pass through the enemy's line at will. Nevertheless, there were some who did wonderful work in this direction. Warden was the finest scout the Auckland Regiment ever produced. A quiet, somewhat reserved man, he had not been at all conspicuous as a parade-ground soldier; but as soon as the fighting started, his exploits on the day of the Landing had brought him the immediate recognition of his superiors. At first with Colonel Plugge, and afterwards with Captain Wallingford, he was given great freedom of action. He always went about armed to the teeth. On one occasion, donning Turkish uniform, he penetrated great distances into the enemy territory. It is said that he once went over the hill and into Maidos itself. However that may be, he knew the whole of the Suvla Bay flat, and all the foothills of Sari Bair, on the left of the Anzac position. The information he brought in was quite invaluable”

The Captain Wallingford mentioned above was the officer who brought the Machine Guns forward: quote “Wallingford had ten machine-guns in action, six of them well forward, two of the six, Auckland guns.” If two of the six were with the Aucklands, were perhaps the other 4 with Hastings and his Maoris?

It seems that Wallingford survived this battle,

So we are left with one story which is or may possibly be innocently made up from two different characters.

The officer with the Maori and the machine gun looks like Hastings

however, Private Warden (who it seems likely was with Wallingford and his MGs) may perhaps be a better candidate for being behind the name of the place between Anzac and Suvla.

Comments please.

edit to add IIIrd option:

Or perhaps, if some of Wallingford's machine guns were in the hands of Hastings' Maoris, then Warden may have gone with them and he was mistaken for an officer by the Maori (historian)

Edited by michaeldr

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gilly100

Hi Steve

I am busy going thru a heap of NZ books and war diaries at present for the Hill 60 work. If I come across anything pertinent I will post it. I too have seen both spellings for this possie.

Cheers

Ian

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Guest

Hello

1. I would have to agree that there is a possibility that the published history has got the wrong name, or at least a corruption of the name. As we all know this is not uncommon...Jephson's/ Jeffersons/Jeffson's Post, Tint's Corner (actually Tynte) etc...casting the net even wider to capture the remote possibility he might have been a British Officer/Temp Officer .... Geoff's Search engine only throws up three men - all ORs - with a name that starts with WALD....and none look likely... I am not aware of any feature named after an OR...

MM WALDON of the 1/5th Norfolks....died 21st Aug

A WALDER of the 2nd Bn Hampshire Regt...died on 14th Aug

WT WALDRON of the 9th Worcestershires...died 10th Aug

2. There is a possibility that he did not die and the account is mistaken.

3. Not sure if you have looked at the Maori Contingent War Diary which might list the Officers and/or mention Waldren... ref is WO 95/4352 at TNA

Separately I did a word search of the 54th Div war diary and nothing came up under any of the corruptions of Waldren/Wladen etc.

M

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Rockturner

Steve,

Just to throw a spanner in the works. In New Zealanders at Gallipoli by Fred Waite on p.324 Waite describes Walden's Point as " North of Taylor's Hollow. Waldren, who's name was always mis-spelt - Walden was a very daring sniper who did much reconnoitering on the Suvla Flats as a machine gun officer of the Moaris. He was killed at the Apex".

However the Moari War Diary AWM4-35-30-1 p.3 says that 2/Lt. A R Curtis MC and bar was transferred from the Canterbury Regiment to command the m.g. section of this unit. Dated 8 July 1915. The Moari's didn't land at Anzac until 3 July so Curtis was attached five days later.

He survived the war and it doesn't look like he used an alias. This is certainly one to keep an eye on during future research.

LonerangerVC

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gilly100

Hi Stephen

I agree with Michaeldr with regard to the scout Pte Colin Airlie Warden of the Auckland Regiment being the so called white officer with the Maori MG's. I will quote the below from Richard Stower's excellent book - Bloody Gallipoli - The New Zealanders' Story, pages 169-170. This referring to the morning of 8 August at the Apex.

'At this time Private Warden, by now an experienced scout, sniper and machine-gunner of the Auckland Infantry, arrived at Captain Wallingford's position behind the Apex. Warden had fought alongside Wallingford on many previous occasions. During the night of 6/7 August he had guided a British unit of the Left Assaulting Column to their objective further north, then returned to the beach and made his own way to Rhododendron Spur leading a Maori Contingent mchine gun team. Wallingford later wrote "Warden, my favourite scout, who had been out on the Chocolate Hill guiding the Britishers, now turns up. He has a Maori Maxim and team and is in charge. He is a proud man bringing up an extra gun to his chief just as he is wanted. I place him (in a cliff top position a short distance west along Rhododendron Spur) having just ordered two Wellington guns away from there."

And on page 371 in Roll of Honour

Warden, Colin Airlie 12/1114 Pte 3 Auckland Coy AIB. Samoan Advance (1/815a Fiji Cont joined NZ Force enroute to Samoa in Suva and later Main Body. Accomplished sniper, scout and M Gunner KIA 8/8/1915 in command of a Maori MG on Rhododendron Spur... Age 27 Comm Chunuk Bair Memorial

While some of the info regarding Chocolote Hill with Brits is contradicting to Left Assaulting Column guiding etc, I feel this is the man most likely to have had Walden Point named after him, albeit it incorrectly spelt. His bearing may well have fooled some into thinking he was an officer well in charge of things. I will keep looking up, but perhaps he guided the Left Covering Force of 4th SWB and 5th Wiltshire? Only my thoughts there.

Incidentally, Richard's book that this is extracted from is a fantastic book, large format, well written and illustrated and daily casualties marked by name, number and regiment/battalion etc in margins. Tons of great photos also. The other chap Jesse Wallingford is also an extremely interesting officer, a great shot - Bisley winner and he was awarded the MC and an MID early in the Gallipoli campaign. His efforts to brigade MG's for maximum effect and choosing good MG sites are well known.

Hope this helps

Ian

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Guest

Another spanner...on of the MLOs was Lord Howard de Walden....he is mentioned by Maj Cowper 2IC 6th Bn East Yorks in an account written to Aspinall Oglander. ref 11th Div War Diaries Vol V page 87. Note: Many of the Yeomanry Staff Officers were used as MLOs for the landings. He was a major in the 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) part of the 2nd Mounted Div.

Edit: Howard de Walden (Scott Ellis) 8th Baron (1880-1946) educated at Eton and Sandhurst. He was formerly of the 10th Hussars and became GSO Maj in the Yeomanry and Hon Col of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Served in South Africa and WWi Lived in Chirk Castle, North Wales and commissioned the Chirk War Memorial 1919-1920 designed by Eric Gill.

Edit. Just found it on a 1:20,000...... MG

post-55873-0-97811900-1355784816_thumb.j

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michaeldr

Did the place have that same name before August and the arrival of the 4th FA?

Was it ever established when this place was so named?

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gilly100

H Michael

There will be a unit history on the 4th Field Ambulance AIF due out possibly in 2013. It may shed some light. My feeling is that it was not named until after it was taken on 6/7 August 1915. Will see what I can dig up on the Australian connection to the name. Plenty of spanners in this thread!!!

Cheers

Ian

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gilly100

Righto

After perusing AWM133 nominal roll WW1 of AIF, I found some 31 Walden people. The only real possibility for these is Chaplain George Trilford Walden.There is a book on AIF chaplains (don't have with me here in Bali) that may have something on him.

Re Martin's spanner - I would find it hard to conclude Walden Point was named after a Lord who served in the 2nd Mtd Div, given that division's arrival date at Gallipoli (Suvla). Form me it is either this chaplain who may have served at Walden Grove/Point giving some peace to the men being treated by the 4th Field Ambulance, or our NZ scout, sniper an MG man Warden, previously mentioned. Only my thoughts. The 4th Field Amb AIF definitely were in that area as were the 4th Aust Inf Brigade, that passed thru Taylor's Gap or Hollow right next to Walden Pt.

Ian

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michaeldr

In the NA file Catalogue Reference:WO/95/4296 Image Reference:280

pages 42 and 43 are a 1/20,000 map and its cover

“Walden Pt” is shown marked on the map, and the cover appears to be dated August 1915

However, it would be nice narrow it down a bit further

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Guest

Re Martin's spanner - I would find it hard to conclude Walden Point was named after a Lord who served in the 2nd Mtd Div, given that division's arrival date at Gallipoli (Suvla). Form me it is either this chaplain who may have served at Walden Grove/Point giving some peace to the men being treated by the 4th Field Ambulance, or our NZ scout, sniper an MG man Warden, previously mentioned. Only my thoughts. The 4th Field Amb AIF definitely were in that area as were the 4th Aust Inf Brigade, that passed thru Taylor's Gap or Hollow right next to Walden Pt.

Ian

You are probably right, but I was just trying to keep the options open. The Yeomanry MLOs landed many weeks before the 2nd Mtd Div...they were staff officers who were detached from the 2nd Mtd Div in Egypt and sent ahead, so their landing dates would have been well ahead of the 2nd Div....As an aside there was a Yeomanry Bde based a within a few hundred yards of Walden Point,... however I think it likely that a feature was named after someone who was instrumental in taking/defending the feature rather than a random staff officer. M

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gilly100

Yes agree Martin

The whole Hill 60, Damakjelik Bair and AghyDere areas sprang up with names related to the men of the 54th Div when it arrived in early September. 13th Div units prior to 54th Div also named a few areas as well as 29th Indian Inf Bgde. The only reason I think that the 2nd Mtd name does not apply is that it was nowhere near the area of its ops. Am aware that Norfolk and Suffolk Yeomanry served at Hill 60 area but from about 10 October I think off top of my head. Presume that is the Yeomanry you refer to Martin. Certainly worth exploring all options. The 4th Field Amb war diary only goes up til July 1915 unfortunately. The upcoming unit history might solve it. We shall see. Interesting on Finsbury Vale.

Cheers

Ian

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michaeldr

Its also marked on the same map as Finsbury Vale - see recent thread

http://1914-1918.inv...opic=185189&hl=

Do you have a date for that map Martin?

My previous post was aimed at getting a date for the first use of the place name Walden Point

(August 1915, if correct, is still a bit general)

regards

Michael

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Guest

Do you have a date for that map Martin?

7th Nov 1915... I have also found a map of ANZAC with Walden point dated 2nd Oct 1915.

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Krithia

A fantastic piece of original research there, you have all been of emmence help, espceially the fathful and not so old Michaeldr. I agree that Private Colin Warden is the probable candidate. It looks like he was in charge of taking Wallingtons MG party to the Apex area of the spur, and was mistaken (as Michael suggests) as an officer. This is plausible as many officer wore ORs uniforms in the attack, and in his scout role would have been trusted to know his ground and lead the MG detachments forward. He was then killed, and with it the story had become blurred. To add a little more not all the guns went forward on Chunukl Bair, or even past the Apex, as there was a lack of MG crews (hence Warden bringing up the Maori crew), so it would be interesting now to find out any more or the story from Wallingford or Hastings, thats if they left anything in print. Hastings of course died of wounds the following day (9/8/15) and was probably one of those that got onto Chunuk Bair itself. Warden and Ferris were killed close together around the Apex, firing up at the Turks along the Sari Bair ridge. Thanks all, you are all Grade A detectives!

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michaeldr

not so old Michaeldr.

Steve,

I really appreciate that particular laurel; thank you

(and, speaking as TGA's dormouse, I promise that on the next tour I will try and keep up with you youngsters as you wine and dine your way into the new day's wee small hours)

A Happy New Year to one and all

Michael

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Krithia

I promise on that on the next tour I will try and keep up with you youngsters as you wine and dine your way into the new day's wee small hours)

A Happy New Year to you and all GWF members.

So Michael, I am not sure what youngsters you were referring to, but as a responsible guide I was only out late doing research and preparing for the following days walks. So, will we see you in 2013 on the Peninsula, we have a brand new "Hidden Gallipoli" walking tour to get all those able two-legged folk to the places that few have ever trod. Tempted?

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