Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2014 I recently bought a No. 5 MKI Mills and was wondering if there was any way of telling the difference between newly made filler plugs and centrepieces and the old originals? Are No. 5 centre pieces only found in brass or other metals too? Tony, Are you able to post a photo of the base plug, that should tell us a lot more about the plug, including who made the plug. The No.5 centrepieces were certainly made of aluminum, although the List of Changes No. 17252, which introduced the No.5 Mark I Hand Grenade on 10th May 1915, makes no reference to the type of metal to be used for the centrepiece. I have also seen centerpieces made of brass. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 I don't think the centrepieces produced in WW1 had any markings? Here's a picture of my original fabricated brass one along with a repro cast aluminium example. I would expect original aluminium examples to have some degree of corrosion if the grenade is battlefield recovered and the brass ones to show discolouration and tarnish similar to mine. Here's a link with some info: http://www.inert-ord.net/brit/mills/pg3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 LF, that was a quick reply! Pictures are below however, I meant the plug/screw at the top end of the grenade. It's been cleaned but the slot for a screwdriver appears to be off centre and that's what got me thinking. The centrepiece is aluminium, I've only seen them made of brass in the past so it's good to hear both were used. The body has no markings that I can see and I believe the base plug maker is Vicory Patents from down the Peckham end of the Old Kent Rd. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 Going by 18th Battalion's photos I'd have a guess at mine, although a slightly different shape where the detonator sits, being original. Thanks for posting them. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 Tony, judging by the picture, I would say your centrepiece is original with the rough sandcast surface and the staining; the repro's I've seen, like my example have a smooth diecast finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2014 Pictures are below however, I meant the plug/screw at the top end of the grenade Tony Tony, Everything looks fine, except for the filler plug, I have never seen one so badly made and off centre, so may be a poor reproduction. As you say your ' V.P. Ltd. ' base plug was made by Vicory Patents Ltd. 10, Devonshire Grove, Old Kent Road, London S.E.15. Keep looking around, as original filler screw plugs do come up for sale, also some much better reproductions are available. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 Thank you both for your replies. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 This page of The Illustrated War News June 23rd 1915 may be of interest. Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to resize it without loosing the clarity of the text (it is very small!) So here it is: 'The Grenade in Modern Trench-Warfare: French, German and British Types, Including the "Bracelet" and "Racket" Hand Grenades. Several types of Grenades used in the trench warfare in France and Flanders, both by the Allies and the enemy, are illustrated here. Photograph No.1 is a German Grenade fired from a rifle, and in No.2 are seen the component parts. No 3 shows a French "Bracelet" hand grenade (a round iron ball attached by a hook and cord to a leather wrist-bracelet), a French "racket" bomb, a British Bomb, and an improvised grenade made from a box. No4 is a larger reproduction of a British Bomb. No 5 shows a French and German "racket" bomb (the German on the right). These "racket" bombs are improvised by the men in the trenches and filled with such explosives as are available. They can be made quickly, and are carried in baskets or haversacks, or threaded with wire slung round the shoulder. In the "bracelet" grenade the leather strap is fastened round the wrist, and the cord attached to it with a hook at the end pulls the firing plug out of the grenade at the moment of hurling. The German grenade can either be thrown by hand or fired from a rifle. It consists of a copper rod with a cast iron cylinder at the end, grooved so as to break into small splinters, and containing explosive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 30 June , 2014 Share Posted 30 June , 2014 first of all sorry for my phone camera quality, here is my humble collection of mills bombs. from left to right: 1. no.23 with '18 dated base plug. 2. centre cast no.5 with base plug dated 8/16 Hinks of birmingham 3. centre cast no.5 with base plug dated 9/16 Davis and Mawson. 4. "sectioned" no.5 was apparently found at Guards cemetery? it's been smashed open rather than detonated, made 5/16 by M.M. Co. Birmingham. 5. no.36 with '18 dated base plug made by E.S. ? (rest is damaged to unsure if there is more) 6. also a relic no.36 gas check plate. hope you enjoy. regards, Haydn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2014 2. centre cast no.5 with base plug dated 8/16 Hinks of birmingham 3. centre cast no.5 with base plug dated 9/16 Davis and Mawson. Haydn Haydn, Very nice collection, I particularly like the centre cast examples, which are not at all common. The ' E.S. ' partial marking could be for E.S. Hindley & Sons., of Bourton, Dorset, and the ' M.M. ' maker's mark is for Mills Munitions, 102 Bridge Street West, Birmingham. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 1 July , 2014 Share Posted 1 July , 2014 I'll have to keep an eye out for one of those centre cast examples but in the meantime, here's another of mine, this time a German one. Anyone know who G.J.B. was? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 1 July , 2014 Share Posted 1 July , 2014 Haydn, Very nice collection, I particularly like the centre cast examples, which are not at all common. The ' E.S. ' partial marking could be for E.S. Hindley & Sons., of Bourton, Dorset, and the ' M.M. ' maker's mark is for Mills Munitions, 102 Bridge Street West, Birmingham. Regards, LF Excellent information, thank you! the centre cast on the right still needs some attention with cleaning, but the others are finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2014 I'll have to keep an eye out for one of those centre cast examples but in the meantime, here's another of mine, this time a German one. Anyone know who G.J.B. was? Tony Tony, A very nice example of a WW1 German ' Egg Grenade ' ( Eierhandgranate ) ? ' 5 Sek ' indicates it has a 5 second fuse. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 1 July , 2014 Share Posted 1 July , 2014 Tony, A very nice example and, with the Model 1917 igniter in that condition, quite scarce in my opinion. An identical example is illustrated at page 60 of "Les Grenades Allemandes de la Grande Guerre" 1983 by Patrice Delhomme. I afraid I don't presently know what the initials of the manufacturer GJB stand for. The maker GJB is listed by Delhomme as one of the fifteen most often encountered manufacturers but, to date, I have not seen any publication listing the actual names. Perhaps another forum member can help? In the meantime, here is a photo of the handle of a "Stielhand Granate 1917" in my collection. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 1 July , 2014 Share Posted 1 July , 2014 Michael, I have a stick marked to AEG - General Electrical Company in English I think. Do you have any idea of the size thread used? I have a pretty good tin can for the stick but the thread needs recutting. LF, I've always thought it was Eihandgranate, Eier being plural as in eggs and also slang for a man's dangly bits. Perhaps a German can put us right. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 2 July , 2014 Share Posted 2 July , 2014 I'm not so sure the centre cast mills are as uncommon as we thought, I can't remember offhand what the production numbers were supposed to be but they were low, I had 2 relics in my collection and a cut down example (they went to Teddy at the Ulster Tower when I left France so are probably in the small museum there). I think that they aren't identified as centre cast, I know of another collector who has several amongst a large collection, all found I the Somme region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 8 July , 2014 Share Posted 8 July , 2014 Haydn, Very nice collection, I particularly like the centre cast examples, which are not at all common. The ' E.S. ' partial marking could be for E.S. Hindley & Sons., of Bourton, Dorset, and the ' M.M. ' maker's mark is for Mills Munitions, 102 Bridge Street West, Birmingham. Regards, LF here's a picture of said base plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 8 July , 2014 Share Posted 8 July , 2014 new addition to the collection, a 1917 dated no.35 Mk I, missing a few bits but in relatively good condition. regards, haydn - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 9 July , 2014 Share Posted 9 July , 2014 Haydn, I think you can get repro bits although I'm not 100% sure. I went shopping last weekend as well Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 I have been fascinated by this thread because my grandfather was a bomber in the infantry on the Western Front. Written orders from the WD for a trench raid in mid-July, 1918 include the following...."2 Mills Bombs per man. Sections dealing with dug-outs will carry (M?). S. K. Bombs." My parentheses and ?. What are these "M.S.K." bombs ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 I have been fascinated by this thread because my grandfather was a bomber in the infantry on the Western Front. Written orders from the WD for a trench raid in mid-July, 1918 include the following...."2 Mills Bombs per man. Sections dealing with dug-outs will carry (M?). S. K. Bombs." My parentheses and ?. What are these "M.S.K." bombs ? Regards, JMB Might M.S.K be Mines South Kensington? A tear gas bomb? Have a look at Post War Treaties on page 4 here http://www.pfoa.co.uk/uploads/asset_file/Tear%20Gas%20and%20Empire_1.pdf Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Tony, Thank you for the link. MSK = "Mines, South Kensington" (tear gas) sounds appropriate given that a primary object of the raid was to obtain identification of the unit of the German troops in the trench, and that live prisoners were highly prized. However, the post-raid report (a) does not report any prisoners being taken, ( does mention that Germans were observed in the front line, that they refused to leave the dugouts, and that "the dugouts were bombed and the occupants undoubtedly killed." © says that in the enemy second line, 2 enemy fired out of one dugout, while 2 rifles were found outside another dugout. "The enemy were given until withdrawal time to come out but refused and mobile charges were put in both dugouts which were destroyed." The pre-raid instructions (very detailed) do not mention the carrying or wearing of gas masks (by even a small section of men), which might be prudent given the intended use of tear gas in a narrow, deep trench. I must admit that I'm puzzled by the turn of events !! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 I would agree with Tony. I have taken this from The Identification Handbook of British Grenades by Rick Landers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 AVS, Thanks for the confirmation with that nice extract from Landers' book. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 17 July , 2014 Share Posted 17 July , 2014 Does anyone know the maker PRR or possibly it's PRB? I've seen it stamped on the bottom of an egg. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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