WW1 Grenades both British and Enemy.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Grenades are not really my area of interest, but labels are, so here are a couple of original box labels that you may find interesting.

Regards

TonyE

TonyE,

2 extremely interesting, and probably rare original grenade box labels.

The named label being for Crane and Company of Warmley, Nr. Bristol, who were established in 1887 as a Firework Factory handling large quantities of explosives for fireworks, and in 1916 they switched their production to Mills Bombs/Grenades with over 10 million Mills Bombs passing through Warmley.

In 1937, there was a massive explosion at the factory, which was in full firework production for 5th November, the factory was virtually destroyed and never reopened.

Excellent WW1 artifacts, many thanks for posting.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A 1917 photograph of a Leicestershire Regiment Bombing School officer with an array of British Ordnance, and his arm resting on a Mills Bomb/Grenade carrying/storage box.

Stephen J. Chambers - Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in WW1.

[Dave1418]

Post 94, it may be me but does the uniform of the chap the photos holding the rifle look a little odd. Perhaps not British, unusual style with no lower front pocket flaps. The colour ven for a black and white photo looks very light compared to the Mills equipment. Any ideas

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Post 94, it may be me but does the uniform of the chap the photos holding the rifle look a little odd. Perhaps not British, unusual style with no lower front pocket flaps. The colour ven for a black and white photo looks very light compared to the Mills equipment. Any ideas

Dave,

Agree with you, what caught my eye was his odd ' footwear ', and the white shirt under the uniform ? I did not pay too much attention, as it was clearly a posed photograph and I was more concerned with the rifle grenade aspect of the photograph.

I shall backtrack, and see if there was any additional information given on the origin of the photograph.

Regards,

LF

[auchonvillerssomme]

Sorry off the topic a bit - I came across this a few years ago, it was used as an ashtray.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Dave,

Agree with you, what caught my eye was his odd ' footwear ', and the white shirt under the uniform ? I did not pay too much attention, as it was clearly a posed photograph and I was more concerned with the rifle grenade aspect of the photograph.

I shall backtrack, and see if there was any additional information given on the origin of the photograph.

Regards,

LF

My immediate thought was Portugese, I have seen much the same appearance with a Stokes mortar.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sorry off the topic a bit - I came across this a few years ago, it was used as an ashtray.

All WW1 bomb related, and a great item.

Regards,

LF

My immediate thought was Portugese, I have seen much the same appearance with a Stokes mortar.

Clearly, he was not your average British Tommy. Here is another, who's origins were never in doubt!

Regards,

LF

[Chris Foster]

LF, I bought the plans and labels for the grenade box from this company. http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/showitem.asp?itemRef=VS050

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF, I bought the plans and labels for the grenade box from this company. http://www.tommyspac...itemRef=VS050

Chris

Chris,

They sell a wide range of reproduction WW1 items, the grenade box is particularly good.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An extremely interesting photograph of a Squad of Bombers, with some wearing the 10 pocket Mills Bomb/Grenade carrying waistcoats, also note the rarely photographed canvas buckets used to carry supplies of 24 Mills Bombs into action.

LF

Stephen J. Chambers - Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in WW1.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The above photograph post # 110, included in the Bombing Squad composition, a Leader ( Officer or N.C.O. ), Bayonet Men, Throwers, Carriers, Spare Men/Snipers.

LF

[TonyE]

...and even more interestingly with a Pattern '14 rifle on the right.

I wonder whether that was taken at a Bombing School in the UK?

Regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

...and even more interestingly with a Pattern '14 rifle on the right.

I wonder whether that was taken at a Bombing School in the UK?

Regards

TonyE

Well spotted as to the P14 rifle, not seen too often in use.

The photo caption does not give a location.

Also, I was researching the blank cartridges used to fire the Mills Bombs as rifle grenades, and found that a specific .303 cartridge was used rather than just any blank round, and I was going to contact you for details of those specific blanks.

I found some examples on line, one set of which I think comes from your own extensive Collection.

I would appreciate your explanation and input as to these special .303 rifle grenade firing cartridges

Regards,

LF

2

[TonyE]

I will give a fuller reply later, but if you tried to uses an ordinary training blank like the L mark V in the picture you would probably end up blowing up the rifle!

Cheers

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I will give a fuller reply later, but if you tried to uses an ordinary training blank like the L mark V in the picture you would probably end up blowing up the rifle!

Cheers

TonyE

Hence the need for your explanation.

Also, could you decipher the various codes on the cartridge tin label, including the 2 ' broad arrow ' markings, ' RL ' and ' ISAA '.

Any assistance you can give, would be much appreciated.

Regards,

LF

[TonyE]

The first part is the easy bit. "R/|\L" is the manufacturer, Royal Laboratory, Woolwich, and "ISAA" is the acceptance stamp of the Inspector, Small Arms Ammunition.

Now for the difficult bit, the nomenclature of the various grenade discharger blanks used in WWI.

The first of the rodded grenades was introduced in 1915 and the discharger cartridge for it was approved initially on 1st March 1915 in LoC Para.17122 as “Cartridge S.A. Blank .303 inch Short Rifle Grenade Mark I”, but on introduction of other types the title was changed to “Cartridge S.A. .303 inch Rifle Grenade 35 grains Cordite Size 3¾ Mark I” in April 1915 in LoC para.19925. This used an uncrimped ball case with the above charge with a tuft of guncotton at either end of the cordite and closed with a cardboard disc or cup sealed with shellac. The original ball headstamp was supposed to be cancelled and overstamped with “I”, but no such examples have been found.

The next type introduced in 1916 in LoC Para. 18511 was a short term measure whilst a more suitable round was developed and was the “Cartridge S.A. .303 inch Rifle Grenade 37½ grains Cordite MDT Size 5-2 Mark I”. This was simply a Ball Mark VII cartridge without the bullet and with the neck filled with tallow. It was provisionally approved for use with all rodded grenades and only seems to have been in use for a short time.

Following this in early 1916 in LoC Para. 19097 came the “Cartridge S.A. .303 inch Rifle Grenade 43 grains Cordite MD Size 4¼ Mark I” designed for use with the No.22 grenade with 15 inch rod. It was, like the others, made from uncrimped ball cases closed with a paper disc and sealed with shellac. It was blackened all over. Later in July 1917in LoC Para. 19087 a second version of this, the “Cartridge S.A. .303 inch Rifle Grenade 43 grains Cordite MD Size 4¼ Mark II” was introduced for the No.23 Grenade with six inch rod. It was identical in appearance to the previous Mark except that the neck was sealed with a cardboard cup and both Marks had the usual tuft of guncotton at either end of the charge. There seems to be no difference between the specification of the two Marks although it has been stated by others that the Mark II actually used Cordite Size 3.

The Mark II remained in service until the end of the .service life of the .303 inch cartridge, the nomenclature changing to “H Mark II” in 1927 and eventually to “Cartridge S.A. Line Throwing .303 inch Cordite H Mark 2” in 1948 after it became obsolete for Land service but continued in use by the Royal Navy.

The cup discharger for the Mills grenade was introduced in 1917 and a new cartridge followed in August in LoC Para. 19456, the “Cartridge S.A. 303 inch Rifle Grenade 30 grains Ballistite Mark I”. As before, early production utilised uncrimped ball cases with the top half blackened for identification. Shortly after WWI the headstamp was changed to include the numeral “1” and from 1928 it became the “Cartridge S.A. Rifle Grenade .303 inch Ballistite H Mark Iz”. In that form it remained in service until the end of the Second World War.

That ended the series of discharger cartridges that were introduced in WWI,

(above from my .303 inch headstamp book)

With the exception of the two types with black staining, these early rounds are impossible to identify properly once out of their packaging as they usually have ordinary ball headstamps.

The pictures are mine as you say. The round on the left is probably the 37 1/2 grain Mark I and the round with the purple stain is a New Zealand H Mark I from 1942. these are normally packed in round tins rather than the familiar British flat tins.

I trust you are now more confused than before!

Cheers

TonyE

[Michael Haselgrove]

Personally speaking I find this thread very interesting, so many thanks to all who have contributed. An earlier question asked by Grovetown, and correctly answered by Lancashire Fusilier, about the change in levers got me thinking. LF was obviously correct that the change to the simplified, flat lever was introduced with the No.23 Mk III. However, in my collection of about ten Mills bombs there are a number of differences in the earlier levers. I am attaching two photos showing six bombs, including a No. 36, to illustrate what I mean.

I have looked in "Grenade" by Rick Landers. The only reference to any change in the earlier levers I can find is as follows:

"As with all items of equipment, designed, manufactured and introduced under the pressure of wartime contingencies, faults were not discovered until they reached the front line. The Mills bomb, one of the simplest and best designed grenades, did not escape these production problems and reports from the trenches were quickly investigated and the defects rectified. The following letter from the Ministry of Munitions to 1st ANZAC reveals the extent of these defects and the solutions applied.

With reference to your letters under No. Q.O.H. 15/38/B and other correspondence and reports on the subject of defects in the No.5 Hand Grenade, the following list shows some of the principal points brought to notice both at home and abroad, and the action taken with regard to both of them.

1. Levers:- Liable to crack near the jaws, and otherwise faulty. Special inspection has been arranged for, and a stronger pattern of ribbed lever has been introduced." Etc., etc.

I have always thought that the earliest type of lever, where the pin passes through the flanges on the lever, was the strongest and that it was only changed to simplify manufacture and to make the levers interchangeable. My questions are whether anyone has any information as to the other change(s) made to the levers and when that was done? Were the changes made officially or are they simply variations between manufacturers?

Whilst writing, the right hand grenade in the photo on the left has the lettering W H S C on the shoulder of the grenade on either side of the lever. I suspect this is the foundry, but I wonder if anyone knows what the letters stands for?

Regards,

Michael H.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

TonyE,

Many thanks for your usual very detailed knowledge and expertise on all matters ' ammunition ', and in this case specifically the blank cartridges used to fire the WW1 Mills rifle grenade.

It is important to get as much chapter and verse on these matters, and also have credible information to accompany and support the photographs.

Just to say, in WW1 they used blank .303 rounds to fire rifle grenades, is clearly not enough. Now you have provided all the facts, including a physical description of the cartridges, which not only makes the subject matter clear, but also that much more interesting and enjoyable, and will also greatly assist anyone looking to obtain such WW1 rifle grenade firing blanks for their Collection.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Michael,

I am pleased you are enjoying the Thread, and many thanks for sharing your excellent collection of Mills Bombs.

I am particularly envious of the sectional example, and I am still looking for such a nice example for my own collection.

Attached is a photograph of British and Dominion Officers and NCO's attending a Bombing School in France ( 1917 ), amongst British Ordnance on display on the bench, is a cut-away sectional Mills Bomb/Grenade used for instruction purposes.

Photograph c/o Stephen J. Chambers - Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in WW1.

These sectional Mills Bombs used for instruction came individually boxed, and attached are photographs of 2 such examples I found on-line.

With regard to the lever designs, I am hoping that someone has the official ' List of Changes ' used for Mills Bombs, although I suspect that some of the variation in lever design was a manufacturing decision.

Regards,

LF

[Michael Haselgrove]

LF,

Thanks for your response and for the photos. In his book Rick Landers says that in January 1916 Brooks and Doxey Ltd., textile machinists in Manchester, were contracted to make 2,010 sectioned Mills grenades. All the ones I have seen have been No. 5 Mk 1 with the brass base plug showing the manufacturer as E.A. RADNALL & Co. I am interested to see that the one in your photo has a steel No. 23 base plug. My feeling is that more than 2,010 were made as many years ago one used to see them for sale reasonably regularly. I am sure your patience will be rewarded and you will find one in due course, although I am afraid you may have to pay rather more than I did!

In the meantime, here is another photo of a Mills grenade in my collection. This one has white paint to indicate a drill or practice grenade. Hopefully you will be able to see the markings on the base plug. I believe the reason this grenade was set aside as a practice or drill bomb is that it has inadvertantly been fitted with a centre fire striker. In the letter I referred to in my last post it says at point 3:

"Centre fire striker pins have occasionally been supplied instead of rim fire pins. This has been traced to certain firms supplying the striker pins who were also manufacturing striker pins for Stoke's shell. Special precautions with rigid inspection have been arranged which in conjunction with the alteration described in para 4 below, and the steps that have been taken to draw the attention of troops to this source of prematures, will, it is hoped, completely eliminate danger on this account in future".

Anyway, I hope the above is of interest.

Regards,

Michael H.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Michael,

Many thanks for posting another excellent example of a Mills Bomb/Grenade, and in particular, one still with its original WW1 period paintwork substantially intact, which as you know, has often worn away with only small traces of the original paintwork remaining.

The base plug is also interesting, in that Hawkins were one of the few base plug manufacturers to use a design as their Maker's Mark, in their case, the 2 screws logo.

regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although it is shown in plain sight in Alan's photograph ( post # 42 ), I just noticed that in the background of the photograph, stacked floor to ceiling are the wooden storage/shipping boxes for the Mills Bombs, one box is also on the work bench being packed.

Which confirms that the Mills bombs were manufactured, filled with explosives and then packed into their WD boxes at the factory along with the fuses and detonators, which were stored separately in their containers in the middle section of the box.

These WD storage/shipping boxes were then opened by the troops at the Front, and armed with their fuses and detonators immediately before operational use, as shown in Chris' post # 95.

LF

[Alan Tucker]

Michael

Re 120 - Hawkins and Co were at 331A, Cheapside, Bham in 1913. As screw manufacturers

[Michael Haselgrove]

Alan,

Many thanks for the information - much appreciated.

Regards,

Michael.

[calibre792x57.y]

Michael, Reference to your comments on the Mills lever variations. You will know that one of the most commonly found types are where the lever has been strengthened by pressing a groove in the inside surface of the lever, raising an external rib. Now one of the approved methods of discharging the No. 23 in it's rifle grenade role was to slide the rod down the barrel, load the propelling blank, and remove the safety pin from the lever with the grenade turned so that the safety lever faces the back edge of the fixed bayonet, and comes to rest against it. Now, with the type of lever I have described above with a rib running down the lever, this would be a pretty hairy process, would it not? So, if you turn to LoC.19087 4 July 1917 there is a reference to a modified form of releasing lever. It is described as having the rib formed on the outer surface and bifurcated under the safety pin. I suggest that this is a confusing description and that it should read as having the rib formed in the outer surface. This would then produce the second type of lever which would form a much safer one to bear against the bayonet blade. Unfortunately I do not have one of these levers at the moment, but I have seen several where the groove is formed in the outer surface and bifurcated under the lever to form a 'Y' with a long stem. This must be what the LoC 19087 is intended to describe. - SW