WW1 Grenades both British and Enemy.

[Gunner Bailey]

LF, that still makes a 30 pound package to be carried across uneven ground on a thin strap.

 

The fact that these numbers appear in a manual bear no relation to the reality of what men did in action. I would expect the number to vary greatly depending on the man carrying the bucket.

 

These manuals were probably written by people on training grounds in the UK who may never have done a night / trench raid in their lives, let alone tested whether  it was feasible to carry 36 pounds of grenades at night, over churned up ground, through barbed wire, then to drop 7 to 8 feet into a German Trench (5 feet if they found a firestep).

 

If you accept the fact that soldiers did not carry a 30 pound Lewis Gun on trench raids as it was too heavy, then a 36 pound bucket of grenades is I think also highly unlikely.

 

John

Edited 5 October , 2016 by Gunner Bailey
typo

[SiegeGunner]

The buckets in the photo at post #767 look slightly less than brim-full and the table at post #769 says that carriers carried 15 grenades, so that seems a reasonable figure to me. 

[Gunner Bailey]

15 Mills = 22 pounds. Just about right I would say.

 

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

11 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

The fact that these numbers appear in a manual bear no relation to the reality of what men did in action. I would expect the number to vary greatly depending on the man carrying the bucket.

John

 

John,

 

Rather than just guessing what may or may not have happened, as you are doing, I prefer to rely only the ' Official ' Bomber's Training Manual, which clearly states that the grenade bucket carried 20 grenades.

I am sure that when the men were selected for the Bombing Squad, they were chosen specifically for their suitability for the task ahead, and the Grenade Carriers would have been physically able to carry the Grenade Bucket fully loaded.

 

The reason I discounted the Lewis Gun, was that it was not listed in the Official Bomber's Manual as being one of the weapons carried by the ' lightly armed ' Bomber Squad.

 

By disputing my quote from the Official Bomber's Manual of a figure of 20 grenades, you are not challenging my words, as I am actually quoting from the Official Bomber's Manual, you are seeking to re-write the Official Bomber's Manual based on your zero experience of a WW1 Bombing Squad in actual operation, which may not be the most sensible approach.

 

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

1 minute ago, Lancashire Fusilier said:

 

John,

 

Rather than just guessing what may or may not have happened, as you are doing, I prefer to rely only the ' Official ' Bomber's Training Manual, which clearly states that the grenade bucket carried 20 grenades.

 

By disputing my quote from the Official Bomber's Manual of a figure of 20 grenades, you are not challenging my words, as I am actually quoting from the Official Bomber's Manual, you are seeking to re-write the Official Bomber's Manual based on your zero experience of a WW1 Bombing Squad in actual operation, which may not be the most sensible approach.

 

Regards,

LF

 

LF

 

I have to say that you also have zero experience of being in a trench raid or bombing squad ! (Which may not be the most sensible approach.)

 

I really don't care what the manual says. Manuals are written for guidance and were doubtless never followed to the rule, or if they were practices were soon modified.

 

The table shown on #769 reflects the reality of a trench raid. Bombers having 10 grenades in vests, carriers following up with 15 grenades each. It makes sense, is practical in terms of mobility and would work. 24 grenades in a bucket simply would not work unless the carrier was very strong and tall. As we know most soldiers in WW1 were 5ft 4" and very skinny. Not great weight carriers at all.

 

So please don't think I'm getting at you personally. What I am saying that a 36 pound bucket was probably impossible to manage in the circumstances of a trench raid. The Manual was probably a 'rough guide' and in reality soldiers opted for a lighter load they could manage with as per post #769.

 

Simply put, an overloaded carrier would lag behind the rest of the party. If they were separated, the whole point of them being there would be lost. They had to keep up, be mobile and I really don't think a 36 pound load is practical of feasible.

 

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

24 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

LF

I have to say that you also have zero experience of being in a trench raid or bombing squad ! (Which may not be the most sensible approach.)

John

 

John,

 

The difference between us, is that you are just guessing based on zero WW1 experience, I do not need WW1 experience as I am actually quoting from the ' Official ' WW1 Bomber's Manual, now either we accept what was written in the Official Bomber's Manual, which would have been read and followed by the Bombing Squad, or as in your case, you think you know better.

The Official Bomber's Manual contains not just the figure of 20 grenades per grenade bucket but also 120+  pages relating to the Training and Employment of Bombers ( see attached index ), and just because the Bomber's Manual shows your figure of 10-15 grenades to be wrong, it is silly to discount or disregard an Official WW1 Training Manual based on your zero WW1 Bombing Squad experience.

The Official Bomber's Manual states the Grenade Bucket held 20 grenades, nothing you wish to guess can change that fact.

 

Interestingly, the Grenade Bucket drawing you used in your post #774, is in fact the Grenade Bucket which the Official Manual states held 20 grenades

 

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

LF

 

For Gods sake stop going on about my 'zero WW1 experience' as that applies equally to you and everyone else on this forum.

 

I am happy to have a difference of opinion with you because we are probably both right. Me in practical terms plus of course the 'real war' note seen in post #769. You in theoretical terms based upon notes probably written by staff without documented experience.

 

If you are happy to believe everything that is written in every training manual and believe it to be 100% possible for every soldier, who am I to say you are wrong? Do you believe everything committed to print is 100% right?

 

On the other hand I would recommend you try this:-

1. Choose a night with a half moon.
2. Fill a bucket with 36 pounds of earth / bricks or stones
3. Find a field locally that has been recently ploughed into ridges, ideally on a hill.
4. At 2 am in the morning, take the 36 pound + bucket and go for a run or a fast walk across the field.
5. If after 50 yards you think its hard work or impossible to carry on for another 100 yards. Decide on stopping or carrying on. Count how many times the heavy load made you fall over.
6. If you get to a ditch, jump down into without spilling the heavy bucket.

Then re-read the manual and tell yourself who is right. Or make a guess at what the actual load should be.

 

Oh, have dropped the idea of 24 grenades in a bucket and it's now 20? If so try 2-6 with a 30 pound bucket.

 

John

 

Edited 5 October , 2016 by Gunner Bailey

[Michael Haselgrove]

Gentlemen,

 

Surely you are both correct?  Whereas I am sure the grenade bucket would hold 20 grenades without the strap breaking under the strain this does not mean to say that they were always filled with so many grenades.  I have had a quick look in Reinventing Warfare 1914-1918 by Anthony Saunders.  At page 177 he writes:

 

............"Alternatively, a squad could comprise four men, two men acting as throwers, the other two as bayonet men, with each thrower carrying a canvas bucket of additional grenades which had to be put down before throwing.  The number of grenades carried in a bucket varied according to circumstances but, clearly, the greater the number of grenades, the heavier the bucket and the greater its impediment to the carrier-cum-thrower". 

 

The authority given is page 4 of the Training and Employment of Bombers, March 1916. 

 

Regards,

 

Michael.

 

[trajan]

36 minutes ago, Michael Haselgrove said:

Gentlemen,

 

Surely you are both correct?  ...

 

 

Well said, sir!

[14276265]

Perhaps we do many of the soldiers a disservice by dismissing them as 5' 4" skinny weaklings. If they had all been that and unable to lift a 30+ lb load, then how did they manage to walk to their deaths in such numbers on July 1 1916 - and many other occasions - carrying loads in excess of 60lb?

 

20 Mills grenades per canvas bucket was the "official manual" figure, but also the practical number as given in unit memos (two examples of many included herein). It is even stated that a man could easily carry two buckets, i.e. 40 grenades.

 

 

265

 

 

Edited 5 October , 2016 by 14276265

[SiegeGunner]

"Buckets are easy to carry; one man can carry two easily, meaning 40 grenades, and if the special canvas bucket has a string round the top a man could carry 4 if necessity arises."  

 

I wonder if the Kiwi Lieut-Colonel every tried carrying 4 buckets  ...  more than half a hundredweight in each hand.  These recent references are surely to re-supply carriers bringing up grenades from the rear under near-ideal conditions. 

[14276265]

8 hours ago, SiegeGunner said:

 

I wonder if the Kiwi Lieut-Colonel every tried carrying 4 buckets  ...  more than half a hundredweight in each hand.  These recent references are surely to re-supply carriers bringing up grenades from the rear under near-ideal conditions. 

 

Carrying four buckets would likely be under benign conditions. However, the carrying of a single, fully loaded (20 grenades) canvas bucket is supported by documentary evidence as generated by fighting units; "The bombing party require buckets for carrying their grenades".

 

Bombers and bombing squads consisted of men chosen to be able to do the job, and it is wrong for us to underestimate the physical abilities of the soldiers at the time by dismissing most of them as 5' 4", skinny weaklings.

 

Edited 6 October , 2016 by 14276265

[trenchtrotter]

All interesting as the debate is please respect each other's posts and keep to topic. In this case it was a show case for grenades. What manuals say, how much they were adhered to and what actually occurred are perhaps best discussed elsewhere. 

 

I am soon to recieve a No 24 grenade and will post a pic to get back on what this excellent thread is, 

 

Thankyou

 

TT

[Gunner Bailey]

Thank you TT, Michael, 14276265 and others. If I may I'll add FINAL thoughts and not stray again.

 

I think some people forget that these instructions and manuals are for guidance and are not Military LAW! Nobody will be shot at dawn for putting 12, 15 or 17 grenades in a bucket rather than the 20 stated in the 'book'.  It would be up to local interpretation and I think the grid shown in post # 769 reflect the reality of carrying a load across rough ground into the German trenches. Please note that carriers also had their rifle, and a bandolier at carry as well! Another 11 pounds.

 

To check things I have been re-reading the diary of Bomber Harry Stinton of the London Regiment. He states that when he went into no man's land to cover wiring parties he only took ten grenades and his rifle. When in the trenches they had canvas buckets positioned along the trench ready for use ( see also #770) with 'about 20 grenades' in them. But this is for static defensive use.

 

Clearly grenades were carried to the trenches in their crates, detonators added and then placed in the buckets for use. The drawstring is clearly designed for two purposes. 1. To keep out the rain and 2. to tighten up the bucket when carried to make it rattle less.

 

I mocked up a bucket to the size in my post #774 to see how the grenades would fit. The bucket will accommodate two layers of 9 and two on top to make the 20, which could be held dry and firmly together under the drawstring. So the only way more than 20 could be accommodated was if the extras were piled in but the top of the bucket would remain open to the elements. Carrying grenades like this would probably lead to spillage.

 

As we were not alive to see what happened in the trenches we have to use a mixture of common sense and the guidance issued at the time to build a picture for us. The hardware of war is deeply interesting and how the human operators interacted with it is wide and varied.

 

John

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

17 hours ago, 14276265 said:

Perhaps we do many of the soldiers a disservice by dismissing them as 5' 4" skinny weaklings. If they had all been that and unable to lift a 30+ lb load, then how did they manage to walk to their deaths in such numbers on July 1 1916 - and many other occasions - carrying loads in excess of 60lb?

20 Mills grenades per canvas bucket was the "official manual" figure, but also the practical number as given in unit memos (two examples of many included herein). It is even stated that a man could easily carry two buckets, i.e. 40 grenades.

265

 

265,

 

Your authentic WW1 documents are excellent, and clearly corroborate the contents of the WW1 Training and Employment of Bombers Manual, as one would expect.

I certainly feel more comfortable relying on contemporaneous WW1 official documentation, rather than meaningless unsubstantiated 2016 guesstimates.

 

Regards,

LF

 

 

[Gunner Bailey]

Balls  -   And a fine and rare pair too.

 

Here we have a rare pair of large ball grenades. On the 27th May 1915 William Mills submitted a Patent request (no 7828) for his 'aerial mine'.  Essentially an over large Mills Grenade that had the normal lever, pin, ring, centrepiece and  base plug. What marked them out was that each grenade was fitted into a mechanism at the wingtip of an aircraft and that the two grenades were connected by a long length of rope.The pilot would fly over an airship, pull a bowden cable which pulled the rings and pins then pulled the bomb release that dropped the bombs hopefully straddling the airship. Each bomb / grenade weighs about 4 pounds.

 

I don't know if these were tested for real, most probably they were at least air dropped.

 

Possibly the rarest of any ball grenades. This pair are slightly different but I know of one matched pair with the original rope that still exists.

 

John

 

 

[trenchtrotter]

Never seen or heard of these. Are they yours or in a museum?

 

TT

[Gunner Bailey]

TT

 

They are owned by a friend. I would dearly love them! As I said I do know of another pair but those are unlikely to be available either. I know of no other examples except the four mentioned, but some others may possibly exist.

 

These are probably unknown to most grenade collectors as are many of Mills' other prototypes. He was incredibly prolific in 1915 with all sorts of ideas coming to him.

 

John

[14276265]

The aerial grenades did not make it as far as air drop trials. However, in late August 1915 drop tests were carried out from the Clifton Suspension Bridge, Bristol, to evaluate the characteristics of various connecting cables - rope, steel wire, and lengths of bamboo.

 

 

 

265

[Gunner Bailey]

265

 

Thanks for the information. Is it documented anywhere? I've seen no reference in print. Odd that the SW of England crops up from time to time in Mills testing.

 

John

[14276265]

Mills used the services of his friend Professor Morgan (Professor of Automotive Engineering) of the University of Bristol. Hence the drop trials on the Mills Linked Bombs from the Suspension Bridge, and a host of other tests of experimental grenades in Somerset. As a good academic he wrote up all the findings.

 

 

 

 

265

[Gunner Bailey]

265

 

Thanks - that all fits. Morgan was more than a friend, he was a director of Mills Munitions as well.

 

John

[MikeMeech]

8 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Balls  -   And a fine and rare pair too.

 

Here we have a rare pair of large ball grenades. On the 27th May 1915 William Mills submitted a Patent request (no 7828) for his 'aerial mine'.  Essentially an over large Mills Grenade that had the normal lever, pin, ring, centrepiece and  base plug. What marked them out was that each grenade was fitted into a mechanism at the wingtip of an aircraft and that the two grenades were connected by a long length of rope.The pilot would fly over an airship, pull a bowden cable which pulled the rings and pins then pulled the bomb release that dropped the bombs hopefully straddling the airship. Each bomb / grenade weighs about 4 pounds.

 

I don't know if these were tested for real, most probably they were at least air dropped.

 

Possibly the rarest of any ball grenades. This pair are slightly different but I know of one matched pair with the original rope that still exists.

 

John

 

 

Hi

 

Interesting post.  The general idea did not go away of course with the idea of dangling 'aerial mines' from a HP Harrow during WW2.

 

However, Mills grenades were dropped from aeroplanes against ground targets in Palestine during 1918.  These were dropped using a container under a RE.8.  The container was mainly used to drop 60 'smoke bombs' to form a smoke screen but it could also drop 120 Mills grenades, as described in a letter (Secret) from W G H Salmond to General Sykes in September 1918 (he also sent the information to his brother who was in command of the RAF in France).  The relevant text is below ((AIR 1/725/115/1):

Mike

 

[Gunner Bailey]

Fascinating - The world's first cluster bomb?

 

Thanks for showing that.

 

John

[ServiceRumDiluted]

I hope I'm not stretching the boundaries of the thread but I thought I'd share these, and they are hand launched!

 

It's a vintage 20 pence coin. For scale I have added a pair of what I believe to be hand dropped german aero-zeppelin bombs.

 

 

They are believed to be souvenirs from a raid in the South East but I have no further information on their provenance but they are not ground dug. Both have functioned, and one shows clear fracture lines.