Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2013 Another photograph showing manufacture of the Mills Grenade. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 28 September , 2013 Share Posted 28 September , 2013 The Railway works is new to me. I don't think I've ever seen a baseplug from them. The second photo may be Westinghouse or CAV. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2013 The Railway works is new to me. I don't think I've ever seen a baseplug from them. The second photo may be Westinghouse or CAV. John. Yes, very interesting, also very interesting to see their process for casting of the grenade body moulds. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 28 September , 2013 Share Posted 28 September , 2013 LF. Here's a WW2 photo (source Canadian Archives) showing the same process in more detail. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2013 LF. Here's a WW2 photo showing the same process in more detail. John John, Somewhat more sophisticated by WW2. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 28 September , 2013 Share Posted 28 September , 2013 Well I suppose the 75,000,000 made in WW1 allowed them lots of practice. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2013 A novel use for the Mills Grenade. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2013 This Mills Grenade No.5 storage/transit box lid label, is similar to that shown in post # 98 for the Mills No.23 storage/transit box. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2013 Mills Grenade Trench Art :- Ink Well, Table Lighter, Book Ends and Cigarette Lighter. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 September , 2013 Share Posted 30 September , 2013 The book ends don't look like real grenades. The 36 lighter is well done. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 September , 2013 Share Posted 30 September , 2013 Here's one you don't want to throw. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2013 The book ends don't look like real grenades. The 36 lighter is well done. John Looks like a resin replica cut in half, however, it was imaginative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 apologies if seen before, but this is an interesting picture http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205024237 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2013 apologies if seen before, but this is an interesting picture http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205024237 Personally, I had not seen that excellent photograph before. Many thanks for posting the link. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 As always, I find this thread fascinating. The above photos of stages of the manufacture of Mills grenades and Gunner Bailey's post 259 where he mentions unmarked base plugs on grenades manufactured in France made think generally about the manufacturing process. The body of most Mills bombs is not marked with the manufacturer's initials/trade mark, etc. although I do have one where the base plug and body bear the same manufacturer's initials and date. We we tend to think that the initials on the base plug are those of the manufacturer of the entire grenade. Is that correct, even assuming the base plug has not been changed over the years? Perhaps it is the case that the plugs were made separately and the plugs, and perhaps other components, were brought together for assembly. If separate manufacturers made the base plugs were they marked with the details of that manufacturer or, at a later stage, with the details of the manufacturer making the body of the grenade and assembling all the components? I have a list entitled "List of Firms Whose Stores are Inspected by D.I.G.A (S) and D.I.M.A.". At pages 63 to 69 is a list of "Firms Making Plugs" and that perhaps supports the suggestion that, at least in some cases, the plugs were made separately. Finally, I have a grenade that is unmarked. Photos attached. I don't suggest it was made in France but wonder if others have such unmarked examples. Regards, Michael H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 This is something I have wondered about for many years. I actually have only one Mills where I can be sure that the firm making the base plug made the whole grenade. A No.5 with its makers initials on both grenade and plug by C.A. Vandervell - bodies by this maker are often found with his shield mark. Quite often the grenades were made from assembled components, so even when I believe the grenade was made as a whole there is no cast iron surety. I have a No.5 with a plug marked 'Roneo'. The plug is made of lead-alloy as used in lineo-type. The centre piece is made of the same soft alloy with a copper tube for the detonator. My assumption is that the whole grenade was made by this firm, but it could be just those two components by Roneo. Another grenade has TA & S for Thomas Adshead & Sons on the base plug, safety lever and gas check -it's a No.36 - but the body is marked HP. This came from an early post War collection. Yet another 36 has a gas check by Oriture Manufacturing Co. Ltd. Looking up this firm they are noted for making gas checks and centre pieces for grenades. On looking through the rest there is no way I can be 100% sure the plugs and bodies have always been together. I feel quite comfortable with most of mine because of their appearance and the length of time I have owned them. But it appears that there. were quite a few components manufacturers. I think you have to look and see if the firm who made the plug also had a foundry in which they could cast the bodies. At least this increases the chances of there being only one maker for your prize bomb! - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 Guys this is a minefield, if you will excuse the expression. It was rare for grenade makers to make all the components. Some firms supplied levers, others pins and rings, centrepieces, and especially the brass ones were rarely made by firms who did casting. Even where all three main components of a Mills 23 MkIII or 36 are all marked with the name there is no guarantee they actually made all the parts in their factory. With the No 5 and the 23 it is even less certain as there was no specification (unlike the 23 MkIII and the 36) to name main components (body, plug and lever). Michael's excellent looking No 5 probably has a plug taken from the production line before stamping. Often these near mint examples were taken from the production line as souvenirs. The French unmarked plugs had a central bar similar to the Kendrick No 23 Mk I plug, but the bar is narrower. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2013 Post # 275 showing photographs of the Mills Grenade's manufacturing process at the London Brighton and South Coast Railway Company's factory, is a good indication that they made their own grenade bodies and centrepieces, if not all the components, and being a large engineering company, they would certainly have had the machinery and expertise to make all the components. I also agree, that in other cases, individual parts for the Mills Grenade were made by separate companies. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2013 Finally, I have a grenade that is unmarked. Photos attached. I don't suggest it was made in France but wonder if others have such unmarked examples. Regards, Michael H. Michael, Another fine example. Very little seems to be known about the WW1 French made Mills Grenades, and although I was able to previously post a list of the 1915 French manufacturers, I have yet to find any other good information on them. Obviously, I am still looking. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2013 Having taken a closer look at the bodies of my Mills Grenades, I noticed that on one of the No.23 grenades, there is a distinct impressed mark on either side of the ' ears ' below the safety pin. One on the left ear is ' H ' and on the right ear is ' C ', presumably this is the grenade body maker's mark. Photo attached. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 LF. It's more likely to be a cast identifcation mark on a No 5. The only maker who we know marked their No5 /23 bodies was CAV who added CAV into the groove of some of their castings. Many No 5's have a O on the front. This was possibly a makers mark but it's not known who. I also have two No 5 / 23 bodies with an embossed M on the front, below the filler screw. This may have been a Mills Munitions reaction to the 23 Mk III specification, but that is not known. Your grenade with HC is a nice rare find. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 Post # 275 showing photographs of the Mills Grenade's manufacturing process at the London Brighton and South Coast Railway Company's factory, is a good indication that they made their own grenade bodies and centrepieces, if not all the components, and being a large engineering company, they would certainly have had the machinery and expertise to make all the components. I also agree, that in other cases, individual parts for the Mills Grenade were made by separate companies. LF LF. I'm not sure how you can draw that conclusion from a photo? They could be just parts ready to assemble. I would expect the railway works to be good at casting iron but aluminium casting is more specialist. In 1914 William Mills was almost the sole expert in aluminium casting in the UK. It was because of the issues with aluminium casting that manufacturers were given the freedom to make centre pieces and base plugs in brass, and filler screws in brass and iron as well as aluminium. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 8 October , 2013 Share Posted 8 October , 2013 Many thanks to all for your replies to my questions. It does seem that there is a vast amount of information still to be discovered! Attached are several more photos of grenades in my collection in case they are of interest. Two of them have already been posted on this thread, but in a different context. The No. 5 is marked WH and SC on the ears and the base plug is marked No 5 ELMBANK FOUNDRY. There is no date on the base plug and the centre piece is brass. The grenade in the bottom photo has, in fact, been converted into a money box. Anyway, once again many thanks. Regards, Michael H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 9 October , 2013 Share Posted 9 October , 2013 If we have separate contractors supplying base plugs to other firms for assembly into grenades why date them? After all the main purpose of dating explosive stores is so that they can be used in rotation instead of keeping elderly stores in stock. These contractors would have no idea when they would be assembled. So, were base plugs dated by the assemblers? - Be a bit difficult in the case of the cast iron 23 and 36 plugs. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 9 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2013 The No. 5 is marked WH and SC on the ears and the base plug is marked No 5 ELMBANK FOUNDRY. There is no date on the base plug and the centre piece is brass. The grenade in the bottom photo has, in fact, been converted into a money box. Michael H. Michael, Again, more fine grenades from your Collection. As you probably know, your JL and Co. is by J. Legge and Company, Stafford Street, Willenhall, and the JMD and SL is by J.M. Doughty and Sons Ltd. The money box conversion is excellent. The ' WSHC ' marking appears to be the same as on the ' ears ' of my grenade, only your's is more clearly marked. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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