WW1 Grenades both British and Enemy.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF

What do you think of this one?

Compared to all other No 5's I've got it's about 5 mm narrower and 4 mm shorter in the body.

John

John,

Another very interesting example, I shall check the reference books and see if that size is mentioned.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

It probably won't be as makers made their own moulds based upon the CIW drawings.

John

[Gunner Bailey]

Any thoughts yet LF? John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Any thoughts yet LF? John

No, not as yet - I do have a question, is there any maker's mark on the base plug ?

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

It was found without a base-plug so the one fitted is not original. Clue - the original base plug would have been un-marked. John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

John,

It looks like the ' India ' Pattern Dummy Grenade, these I understand had a narrower body ?

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

Correct in being made outside the UK, but not India Pattern......John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Correct in being made outside the UK, but not India Pattern......John

The only other foreign made ' Mills ' type grenades I am aware of, were produced in France in early 1915 ?

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

You got there. This looks to be one of the French made 'Dunkirk' grenades made by up to half a dozen foundaries. No other grenade I have found matches it for size. All of the French made grenades were centre-casts. This one has an unusual pattern of segments around the filler hole.

My only conclusion is that it's a French made example.

If you are used to handling Mills No 5's this one immediately feels different in the hand.

I found it at a French Military fair. It had obviously been dug up a number of years ago. The pin, ring and lever are original. There was no base plug with it but the French base plugs are unmarked. I hope to obtain one one day.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

John,

In May 1915, the British Army ordered copies of the newly arrived Mills No.5 Grenade from M. Vanderslys of Dunkerque, and later placed orders for copies of the ' Mills ' No. 5 type grenades from

Emile Imbert, Escarbotin, Somme.

Societe Francaise d'Incandescene par la gaz, Vimieu, Somme.

Gauchet, Paris.

These ' French ' Mills type grenades were copies based on the Mills No.5 design, that is why there are differences in the grenade's dimensions.

It is estimated that only 180,000 + ' French ' Mills grenades were manufactured in 1915, and with actual WW1 combat usage, the numbers of surviving examples must be extremely small, making the ' French ' Mills No.5 grenade somewhat of a rare item.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

Out of all my Mills Grenades It's a bit of a favourite. Despite the condition. John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Men of the Yorks and Lancashire Regiment, wearing camouflaged suits, prepare for a trench raid with the man in the middle armed with a Mills grenade - near Roclincourt, 12th January, 1918.

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

Beware of hoodies with Mills Grenades! :->>

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Beware of hoodies with Mills Grenades! :->>

John,

Imagine that lot dropping in on your trench unexpectedly, and unless the order was to bring back prisoners, I am sure there were none!

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

I have rarely seen such a scary group in the Great War. It's a great photo.

It also leads me to think more about how trench raiders camouflaged themselves. I had previously read that tin helmets were abandoned for 'comforters' badges removed etc. However this group have taken it to a fine art. Face down in the mud they would have been pretty well invisible on the way to the German trenches.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I have to say that this is all supposition. The only photographs I have seen of real time trench raiders were snatches from a film taken in 1917 at Arras. This is pretty well documented. No one was wearing equipment and all were wearing steel helmets and carrying rifles with fixed bayonet. No one can seen with Mill bombs, although it is difficult to imagine a raid without them or Stokes mortar rounds. This was in the Spring of 1917. PS. Gunner Bailey - do you have any Mills in good condition?- SW

SW,

Unable to agree that " this is all supposition " as this is a well documented photograph ( IWM Q23580 ), no doubt the early trench raids were conducted with the troops wearing only basic equipment, however, as the war progressed there were many improvements in equipment, one of which being the introduction of the ' Crawling Suits ' shown in post # 264.

These ' Crawling Suits ' were specifically designed to remove the usual uniform impediments such as belts, buckles etc., make the crawling movement over the ground much quicker, and quieter, and also afford the wearer camouflage.

I would think that by 1918, when this photograph is documented as being taken, matters had long since improved and moved beyond ' Tommy ' catching his braces on the barbed wire or banging his tin hat as he approached the enemy trench thereby giving the Germans ample notice of the impending trench raid.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

I PS. Gunner Bailey - do you have any Mills in good condition?- SW

Of course!

[Gunner Bailey]

SW,

Unable to agree that " this is all supposition " as this is a well documented photograph ( IWM Q23580 ), no doubt the early trench raids were conducted with the troops wearing only basic equipment, however, as the war progressed there were many improvements in equipment, one of which being the introduction of the ' Crawling Suits ' shown in post # 264.

These ' Crawling Suits ' were specifically designed to remove the usual uniform impediments such as belts, buckles etc., make the crawling movement over the ground much quicker, and quieter, and also afford the wearer camouflage.

I would think that by 1918, when this photograph is documented as being taken, matters had long since improved and moved beyond ' Tommy ' catching his braces on the barbed wire or banging his tin hat as he approached the enemy trench thereby giving the Germans ample notice of the impending trench raid.

Regards,

LF

LF's reply and the photo being discussed in some ways embraces what the British Army was about in WW1. Mistakes followed by learning and change. I'd not seen the photo before but it didn't surprise me. There was constant innovation and new products produced, be they weapons or kit. The Germans went through the Great War with three rifle grenades, we had about 30.

John

[calibre792x57.y]

Of course!

Okay - just curious. I must say that the days when one could walk about and see 50 relic mills in a day have gone. Certainly I can see that all the variations have a charm of their own. Cheers -SW

[Gunner Bailey]

SW

I only keep a couple of relic grenades in my collection. The possible Dunkirk grenade being one. Sadly I've had to pay good money for most of them. John

[highlighter]

Lance-Corporal Keyworth, V.C., with members of his regiment after his investiture.

Thanks, and interesting thread

I have sent you a pm, as I don't want to de-rail your thread

[Gunner Bailey]

Here's a couple for the No 5 pot.

A Factory Sectioned CentreCast. Plug HT&V 11/15

A Nickle plated No 5 by Gibbons, used by trainers 12/16

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks, and interesting thread

I have sent you a pm, as I don't want to de-rail your thread

Details sent to you by PM.

Pleased to hear you are enjoying this Thread.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here's a couple for the No 5 pot.

A Factory Sectioned CentreCast. Plug HT&V 11/15

A Nickle plated No 5 by Gibbons, used by trainers 12/16

John

John,

More great examples. The excellent sectional is by H. & T. Vaughan. Standard Works, Willenhall, Staffs.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

To assist with the war effort, The London, Brighton and South Coast Railway Company, in addition to locomotive production, also used their Brighton factory to produced Mills Grenades. In the attached interesting group of photographs, we can see some of the stages in the Mills Grenade's manufacture.

LF