Worrying development

[Alan Tucker]

Spot on Kevin. We could also emphasise the immense patriotism of 1914, the effectiveness of the Royal Navy blockade which helped bring Germany to its knees, the women who did dangerous and onerous work on the home front, the impressive networks of support for the fighting men from the home front and also emphasise the medical, technological and scientific spin offs from war etc.

If we focus on what should be celebrated, isn't the fact that the "Contemptible little army" stopped the advance of the Germans just long enough for defences to be made at the Marne and thus halt the drive on Paris? That the British Regular Army was practically destroyed to aid our Allies in France and Belgium should be appreciated, even if the tactics employed once it went to trench warfare were to cost the British forces dear. That makes the achievements of capturing Vimy Ridge and other similar areas where all the advantages lay with the Germans all the more admirable.

The fact that the Germans held virtually all the high ground so that attacks had of necessity to be over unfavourable ground should still celebrate those advances won so dearly.

The introduction of the tank was a major step forward, even if the commanders did not understand its limitations and did not exploit its strengths to the best advantage, but after 4 years of fighting over the same few miles, virtually nothing short of helicopters could have made much difference.

That the spirit of the "Tommy" stood up to appalling living conditions and still was able to fight, attack or defend against some of the most pulverising artillery bombardments and the use of gas should be commemorated, as well as the privations engendered by sharing the same moment to moment dangers to forge a comradeship that few ever forgot.

To say that the GWF is mainly concerned with the Dead is grossly unfair, it simply is a fact that the records are there to assist recreate a life (or lives) lost which don't exist to the same extent as for the living. That so few of the living wanted to be reminded of the horrors is understandable but also regrettable as families now are desperately anxious to know what their forebears did, where they were and all kinds of extraneous information that all adds to our knowledge.

I just don't want all these many hundreds of thousands of otherwise normal people to be given less credence than say Walter Tull just to appease a minority.

[Khaki]

"Are we downhearted? NO

khaki

[MichaelBully]

I tend to agree with Gwyn's comment. I am very curious to know what 'PC' even means these days. If wanting to include Women's History, the contribution made by non-white servicemen, how the Great War impacted on Africa and Asia, in the Great War ,Conscientious Objectors, amongst my own research , then I hope to join the PC Brigade if they would have me .

And using 'illiterate' is an insult gets me more than a little worried.

I think that some very important points have been made on this thread, particularly those mentioned in the first three paragrahps of Kevin Battle's post that Alan has quoted above, along with Alan's own comments.

And I totally agree that the case for British and Empire participation in the Great War , the arguments for viewing the Great War as a British and Allied victory, highlighting the achievements as well as the tragic losses , are crucial

Regards,

Michael Bully

Phrases like 'PC' and 'the politically correct brigade' aren't helpful in addressing anything in what could be still be a productive dialogue with opinion formers and policy makers.

Edited - as sent original post off too early.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... " we were treated to the usual politically correct stuff about Walter Tull and Edith Cavell so that we got the novelists, the poets, black soldiers and women all featured - but not the architects of victory such as Haig and Foch. ...

The first use of “politically correct” in this thread is attributed to Peter Simpkins. Professor Simpkins’ use of that expression, I’d suggest, is unlikely to have made lightly, but what else is he to have expected ?

Murrison is a prominent politician,(*) and he and his masters are inevitably going to take a populist line. Faulks, Barker, Tull and Cavell tick all the right boxes – in fact there are probably readers of certain newspapers (and members and officials in certain “organisations”) who really do believe that black female poetry writers were prominent contributors to Britain’s efforts during WW1.

I say that only partly tongue-in-cheek, but recognise that it’s a useless point to try to discuss here. As another contributor to GWF says, I’ll get my coat (and await developments with interest).

(* Give him his due, Murrison did serve during TELIC II).

Tom

[auchonvillerssomme]

Well as a brigade might contain 3,000 to 6,000 individuals why would we be afraid of a PC brigade?

[Guest exuser1]

I know it's very well with post number 1 raising the question as to what a circus the centenary of the Great War will be remberd by in Blighty and the comments raised in number 94 of WFA Bulletin in the editorial ,and that we should rember the magnificent stand at Mons , the gallant fighting withdrawal to the Marne, and the saving of Paris ,then the attempts to boot the Hun out of France , through to the splendour of the 100 days and not forgetting the RN keeping the HighSeas Fleet at bay , so when I sit down to read this issue as normal is there an article on and of the above ? No ,it's as though I have picked up a copy of undertakers on holiday ? Lots of photographs of people standing behind graves ,in cemeteries ,and yes on a Poets tour of the Western Front , if Call me Dave has been leafing through a few back copies of the Bulletin I know the impression he will come away with ?

[matt2568]

WFA Bulletin has an editorial today which does not bode well for 2014.

Peter Simkins attended a meeting on November 24 of the British Commission for Military History. One of the speakers was Andrew Murrison, the Prime Minister's man for the Centenary (Con, Westbury). Pete Simkins had this to say about what he heard...

"Murrison's speech was profoundly depressing from my point of view. It was full of references to Sebastian Faulks and Pat Barker rather than to Gary Sheffield or John Bourne and we were treated to the usual politically correct stuff about Walter Tull and Edith Cavell so that we got the novelists, the poets, black soldiers and women all featured - but not the architects of victory such as Haig and Foch. The members of the British Commission for Military History (some of them also in the WFA) gave him a fairly rough ride and several delegates called for some acknowledgment of the 100 Days, pointing out that nearly all of the anniversaries proposed by Cameron/Murrison were 'negative' ones such as Gallipoli, the first day on the Somme etc - also that he hadn't mentioned Amiens etc. My strong impression was that he isn't going to change his or the Government's mind".

One would hope the fact that Britain actually won the Great War will be mentioned at some point in the proceedings.......

[maxi]

If Danny Boyle or that kn*b Ben Elton are in anyway connected with this I am going to start a riot!

Maxi

[simonharley]

I would suggest that every GWF member who feels strongly about this to get on to their Member of Parliament and gauge the response. I personally know two M.P.s who are ex-forces and will get on their case at some point and see what their thoughts on the impending circus are. To Keith, I'd say be patient, and if you still don't get a response try again.

Simon

[auchonvillerssomme]

I strongly suspect that many services that we would normally just turn up at will be invitation and ticket only events attended by the politicos, celebs and the usual hangers on. I daresay young Dan Snow will have a busy calendar.

I noticed this Australian piece.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/rebel-gallipoli-service-planned/story-fn59niix-1226532538394

[MartinWills]

I strongly suspect that many services that we would normally just turn up at will be invitation and ticket only events attended by the politicos, celebs and the usual hangers on. I daresay young Dan Snow will have a busy calendar.

I noticed this Australian piece.

http://www.theaustra...x-1226532538394

Whilst I am not a fan of most TV historians, given that the output is calculated to play to public appeal and is often edited to make a point that perhaps was not there originally, I have admired Dan Snow and his father in one single respect. Their programme and analysis of the battle of Amiens complete with all the hopping graphics is probably the only occasion when the effectiveness and brilliance of the British and Commonwealth forces (and others) in the period that approximates to the last 100 days has been clearly portrayed and conveyed to the public at large through the popular media. Would that it was used more in education relating to the period both in schools and elsewhere! I might add that I am not convinced by much of their other output.

[charlesmessenger]

I was one of those people whom Pete Simkins said gave Murrison a 'fairly rough time' He began his talk by quoting Pat Barker, who apparently declared that the two greatest crimes of the 20th century were the Holocaust and the First World War. We knew then where he was coming from. Yet, he exhorted us historians to overturn the General Melchett image of the Generals, which I pointed out was not easy given the Government chosen landmarks of Gallopoli, 1 JUuly 1916, and Passchendaele (Jutland at least recognises the Royal Navy, but there is nothing for the RAF). His reply was that these were what the media expected! When I argued for something on the 100 Days to pay recognition to British resilience it fell on deaf ears.

Murrison apparently later said that he was disinclined to address suich a gathering of military historians again!

You might also be interested to know that the Foreign & Commonwealth Office has taken the lead in identifying the key moments of the war. Neither Amiens (Ludendorff's Black Day) nor the storming of the Hidenburg Line feature in their list.

Charles M

[Alan Tucker]

Thanks Charles - makes the situation even more pessimistic and profoundly depressing. It would be interesting to know the view of Hew Strachan on all this as he is probably the only one I trust on the PM's advisory council. So we are going to have four years of distortions of the war because that is what the media want. Don't they know that 'each generation writes its own history' and that the abberations of the inter-war writers down to Black Adder (with some honourable exceptions e.g. Charles Carrington, John Terraine) have been replaced by new perspectives based on a wide range of scholarly research in universities (Birmingham, Kings College etc etc) over the past 30 years. For example I taught the causes of the war to 'A' Level students for many years and have now totally changed my thinking as a result of reading 'The Sleepwalkers' by Christopher Clark.

[bushfighter]

Do we just want to expend time and creative energy by internal argument and discussion?

The fact remains, and the politicians recognise it, that academic books are not of real interest to the general public.

The answer for GWF Members, but only if they wish to act rather than chat, is to start writing non-academic articles for the general public that convey a positive message about events in the Great War.

All British towns and villages had links to regimental systems, therefore by talking about what a unit did in a certain successful battle or campaign local interest will be aroused.

Then persuade local newspapers to publish the articles or local radio stations to discuss them with you on air.

You will have to perhaps change your normal routine slightly and extend yourself to accomodate this - but that's what servicemen have always had to do - and we would be commemorating them and their positive achievements by our efforts.

Are you up to this challenge?

Harry

[Guest exuser1]

Must agree with the above ,when I was a member of the WFA back in Blighty ,whenever they had an article published in the local Essex papers it was normally concerning some story of doom and gloom ,and when a tour was organised the photos were of gravestones of some ones uncle or grandad and then off to the next cemetery , and after looking at this thread I went back through a few years worth of their publications and its very much of the same ? All of a sudden it's though they want to turn 30 years of rembering on to its head ? I believe the difference that in the present what separates the Great War with rembering WW2 is that many many veterans are still with us who will pass on stories of living it up in Alex , Malta and the Gut ,and Pompey or Chatham on pay night ,and the victories of 1944 / 45 and standing up to the Hun in 40/41 who would celebrate what happened 70 years ago , the lads from 14/18 would be exactly the same I rember in 1970 where I lived the local pub the Pier Tavern in Millwall had a do for about 15/20 veterans from the Great War on 11/11 it was a great night full of funny stories and a real pride in beating the Kaiser , yes they remberd their lost mates but they celebrated their memory

[MichaelBully]

Yes agree with a lot of the points raised in posts #39 and #40 - would add local history discussion forums to list of places where different views concerning the Great War might be placed.

Regards

Michael Bully

[Stoppage Drill]

That's true enough. I vividly recall meeting many Loos men at the Welsh Guards 50th St Davids Day in 1965 at Chelsea Barracks, then a couple of years later I was invited to the Annual Reunion Dinner of the RWF London Welsh Battalion at some rooms in Northumberland Avenue. There was time set aside for very poignant remembrance, for sure, and proud as I was to be there I could only feel myself to be an outsider at these moment. I was humbled by the warm welcome I was given and the events were, on the whole, very jolly indeed.

Another recollection that I have from1977 - the 60th anniversary of Y3 - is of seeing children laughing, running and chattering around a cemetery - Maple Copse I think. I was a little concerned that the old men I was with might be upset or offended by the apparent lack of respect, but one of them with an MC on his chest told me that the men who lay there would have been pleased to think that children could run frely and happily amongst them. It was a lesson that you shouldn't feel offended on other peoples behalf.

[Guest exuser1]

Good idea , I know the Chatham Memorial will dominate the town ,but the Medway Towns for instance would have much to celebrate ? Jutland , Zebrugge Raid it's close connection to the Navy , and how many inner London schools realise they have local regiments such as Poplar and Stepney , Hackney , Greenwich Blackheath Woolwich , and Bermondsey , these have as much going for them as any Pals battalion ?

[Chris_Baker]

WW2 remembrance makes much of the "Blitz spirit". Make do and mend; keep calm and carry on; who do you think you're kidding, Mr Hitler. That is all seen very positively and is celebrated (even though when you scratch below the surface it is not an entirely accurate representation). Surely WW1 has this very same spirit, as far as Britain was concerned. With casualty lists as long as your arm; governmental controls on your liberty; rationing and 1001 other reasons why people might have revolted, they did not. They stuck to their guns. That applies just as much to the armed forces as to the civilian population. If we are to represent anything positive about a war, is this not it, to a far greater extent than any military "victory"?

[MichaelBully]

Yes agreed Chris. I can think of a number of conversations I have had where I have respectfully pointed out to people that Britain could not have fought the Great War unless a huge majority of the population -in the services or as civlians- agreed ( to differing extent) that Britain should participate rather than stay neutral.

With the exception of Ireland where history took a different course as it were from 1916, the view that Britain shoud stay fighting prevailed even when losses and hardship mounted up.

When a population began to refuse to co-operate such as Russia 1917, or in Germany at the end of 1918, the authorities could not stop them.

I am interested in the anti-war /no-conscription groups but fully accept that their views were largely marginalised.

Whatever views someone holds in the 21st Century , I can't see how another conclusion is possible.

Regards- and can I just stay that I am pleased that this thread is taking a quite a positive turn?

Michael Bully

WW2 remembrance makes much of the "Blitz spirit". Make do and mend; keep calm and carry on; who do you think you're kidding, Mr Hitler. That is all seen very positively and is celebrated (even though when you scratch below the surface it is not an entirely accurate representation). Surely WW1 has this very same spirit, as far as Britain was concerned. With casualty lists as long as your arm; governmental controls on your liberty; rationing and 1001 other reasons why people might have revolted, they did not. They stuck to their guns. That applies just as much to the armed forces as to the civilian population. If we are to represent anything positive about a war, is this not it, to a far greater extent than any military "victory"?

[AlisonS]

I admit that I'm not sure when these commemorations will take place - hopefully in August 2014 rather than just November.

Organisations such as IWM, CWG etc are the ones who should be given the backing from Government and the money to arrange suitable events. That way we would have more resources to help keep the memory of those who were involved alive. Education is the key.

I recently reasearch all those who lived/died during WW2 for a local church. I have now started on those from WW1. One of the first people I looked into lived 2 doors up from my own house. I have told the family who now live there. The children are a little young to understand at the moment but will hopefully be interested in a few years time. If we all pass on this type of information it would help keep the memory of those who fought alive so fully agree with #39, #40 >.

As I come from a Naval family, I don't think the ships were linked with towns/cities as they were during WW2, although I'l probably be told I'm wrong!! Perhaps the SCC and CCF could allocate a ship to each unit from WW1 for them to remember and research. HMS Hermes was always linked with Tiverton SCC. It was launched in approx 1918 and served through to WW2, so would be ideal for them to look more carefully into.

Alison

[seaJane]

I don't have the background knowledge to offer an informed opinion on the main thrust of this thread, but I can tell interested forum members that the National Museum of the Royal Navy Portsmouth will open a new Twentieth Century gallery next year. This will include material from Jutland, with a special focus on the centenary both of the GW and Jutland when they arrive.

I know this because the collection I curate will be lending some material to the said gallery for exhibition.

sJ

[MichaelBully]

That's very encouraging SJ ! Certainly I hope that the centenary will take in the war at sea including Jutland. Perhaps we could revive the idea of 'Great War at Sea ' poetry anthology?

With best wishes

Michael Bully

I don't have the background knowledge to offer an informed opinion on the main thrust of this thread, but I can tell interested forum members that the National Museum of the Royal Navy Portsmouth will open a new Twentieth Century gallery next year. This will include material from Jutland, with a special focus on the centenary both of the GW and Jutland when they arrive.

I know this because the collection I curate will be lending some material to the said gallery for exhibition.

sJ

[bruce]

We may not celebrate Coronel, but might there be mention of the Falklands?

Bruce

[Kate Wills]

... we were treated to the usual politically correct stuff about Walter Tull ...

and here's a bit more