Route to send supplies and men to Italy theatre of war?

[The Guardroom]

Could someone help advise what the logistics route was for sending supplies and especially re-enforcement drafts to Italy please.

Was it direct via ship to Italy or would trains via France have been used?

Also would this be used for the wounded or those on home leave going back and forth?

I ask as I am again researching a man of the 2nd Royal Warwickshires who is recorded as being buried in France, KIA on the 17th May in 1918, when the 2nd RWR were in Italy. What was he doing in France.

Someone else has suggested he was perhaps quickly moved to France, perhaps after home leave and sent to the 1st Bn RWR which was suffering losses at the time of the German offensive. Why he was not transferred on hsi records to teh 1st Bn then or that the CWGC still has him with teh 2nd Bn is a oddity?

Previous topic on matter -

Thanks for help.

Alan

[The Guardroom]

Also perhaps if he was killed soon after arriving with the 1st Bn, his service records were never updated in time.

I know of an instance of a Major St John Shandon Quarry, who was a Major in the 3rd Royal Berkshires and then quickly moved to become C.O. of the 1st Royal Warwickshires in early May 1918. He was subsequently killed a few days after taking charge of the 1st Bn and on the CWGC site, it mentioned his commanding the 1st RWR, but his main regt remains the Royal Berkshire.

[keithmroberts]

But where in France? If he was buried somewhere close to the Western Front then the suggestion in the post above surely applies, whereas if he were buried say in Marseilles....

Keith

[centurion]

In terms of supplies there were a constant series of tractor trains (each a Holt pulling three multi wheeled trailers) through France and into Italy. Very slow but reliable (and no risk from U boats). I've seen accounts of men travelling back from Egypt etc landing in Italy and taking a railway train through France from there and coming back the same way so there must have been passenger traffic in both directions.

[The Guardroom]

Thanks for replies. Very interesting on routes. I did not realise how busy our ports in France must have been, serving not only the Western Front, but on wards diversions to Italy and the Balkans.

My 2nd RWR man is buried in Gonnehem British Cemetery.

[keithmroberts]

Just looked at the cemetery register and the other thread. Surely there can be little doubt that he was with the 1st Battn at the time of his death. The location hardly sits well with transport from Italy, however convoluted the journey.

Keith

[centurion]

Sailings for Egypt and the Balkans where whole units were involved would either be from a British port or a French Mediterranean port. Ditto for Italy except that some supplies went overland from France . Those examples of men travelling to and from Italy by train are men going on leave and returning or senior officers for consultation/replacement and men (usually officers) going on courses. This was much quicker than sailing and the numbers were not so great. AFAIK ships not going to France sailed from different ports to the coss channel traffic to reduce congestion.

[WhiteStarLine]

Alan, are you still looking for this detail or are you pursuing other lines of enquiry, as they say. I have the wonderful book Sapper Martin, The Secret Great War Diary of Jack Martin and he left a day by day detailed diary, including crossing from France to Italy by train and route march, then return to France. I can summarise the dates and locations if you still want it? Bill

[Seany]

in quick answer to the OP - it was almost exclusively trains. Sanders Marble excellent dissertation on the role of RGA in Great War covers this in some detail 'The infantry cannot do with a gun less' is I think the title and its a free ebook from Gutenberg press, equally as Bill says Sapper Martin gives a common account of the train journey through southern France

[The Guardroom]

Thanks Bill, Seany,

Will go seek an ecopy of the books you mention, as quite not an area I have thought or read before. Thanks for the recommendations.

Keith,

I agree with you and my thoughts are that he was in the 1st Bn, not the 2nd. I just wonder how this was complicated on his original records and hence passed down to the memorials. Its a shame that without any real proof, it can't get altered on the CWGC site to help future checks.

Rgds,

Alan

[bantamforgot]

Regarding movement of troops from France to Italy ,late 1917 when 5 divisions were sent to assist the Italians, one division I am aware of left from Hesdin & arrived at Savona & Borgo San Domino..

Colin.

[eddison]

Again on the subject of troop movements. My grandfather was part of 103 Bde RFA attached to 23 Div and recounted his trip from the western front to Italy in his diary which is on this web site http://www.bertspires.co.uk/.

There were limits on the use of rail because of track capacity. In his diary he describes how they went by train, south to Marseille then along the coast to Ventimiglia. There the arty detrained and marched to Savona because the line became single track and didn't have the required capacity for the large troop movements taking place at that time. They then entrained in Savona for Montova where the rest of the division was concentrating. He never mentions travel by sea and I imagine that the single track is unlikely to have been an issue once deployment was complete.

Ted

[Seany]

Again on the subject of troop movements. My grandfather was part of 103 Bde RFA attached to 23 Div and recounted his trip from the western front to Italy in his diary which is on this web site http://www.bertspires.co.uk/.

There were limits on the use of rail because of track capacity. In his diary he describes how they went by train, south to Marseille then along the coast to Ventimiglia. There the arty detrained and marched to Savona because the line became single track and didn't have the required capacity for the large troop movements taking place at that time. They then entrained in Savona for Montova where the rest of the division was concentrating. He never mentions travel by sea and I imagine that the single track is unlikely to have been an issue once deployment was complete.

Ted

And may I say what a fabulous website it is. I have taken the liberty of quoting bits of his recollections in my notes around my grandfathers time in Italy on my website

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Forgive me if Im submitting something wrong BUT I havn't read all the posts.

If you are asking how the troops got to Italy, I traced my grandfather's (see below) route to Italy from the War Diary and produced a map

Regards,

Graeme

[DJM]

Just found this thread, as I have been trying to work out my grandfather's involvement in The White War, and from Cruttwell's The War Service of the 1/4 Royal Berkshire Regiment (T.F.), which is available on Project Guttenberg, I have extracted the following sequence for the Battalion to get from France to Italy by train - cousins are touring northern Italy by motorcycle this summer and wanted to know where to go. DJM

22.11.1917 Left Savy and Villars Brulin for Italy; two trains were taken, both travelling to Troyes, after which one (under Colonel Clarke) reached Dijon on the evening of the 23^rd, then Lyons in the morning of the 24^th, Avignon at 2 am on the 25^th and Toulon at dusk. The frontier was crossed at 8.10 am on the 26^th at Ventimille, and Savona reached at nightfall. At dawn on the 27^th it had reached Pavia then travelled along the Po to Cremona and, finally, a 16 hour halt; the two Companies marched through the streets accompanied by their band, raising some enthusiasm from the Italians. Mantua was then reached at 1 am on the 29^th and the two Companies detrained at Saletto, lodging that evening at Noventa. The second train (under Major Aldworth) crossed Mont Cenis at midnight on the 24^th arriving Turin at noon on the 25^th. The train then ran north-east reaching Milan on the night of the 26^th and the south to Pavia and along the Po to Mantua, reaching Nogaro during the early evening of the 27^th.

[GraemeClarke]

DJM

The War Diaries are here

http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries/search

Far more detailed, ie 26 November 1917

Arrived CANNES LA BOCCA 2 am, left at 4am. Hot coffee was issued and horses watered etc. Thence via CANNES - NICE - MONTE CARLO - MENTONE, crossing the Frontier 8.10am. Arrived VENTIMILLE 10am. (Italian Time) Left 10.30am arriving at SAVONA 5pm, left at 6pm. Hot water was ready and tea was made and issued. Horses were watered. The reception on Italian soil was quite different from what we had experienced through the South of France. Thence the train went up in two parts to St GUISEPPE forming one train there forward. It was a fine run along the coast. Weather:- a fine cold day, sharp frost at night. [second train Italy] We arrived at CORDONO at 9am, where the train halted for 1/2 hour. Another halt was made at 10am where the men washed, shaved, hot tea was issued, and light physical exercise was carried on for a short period. The train moved off soon after noon, arriving at BOZZOLO at 3.50pm. The men detrained and hot tea was issued. Permission was given to the men to walk into the town from 4.30pm to 5.30pm. The people gave us a warm welcome and were evidently pleased to see us. The train eventually left BOZZOLO at 7.40pm. Weather:- a fine cold day, sharp frost at night.

Regards,

Graeme

(crikey, it was a long time ago I did that map !!!)

[DJM]

Fantastic, thanks Graeme. DJM

[eh657]

1/4th Royal Berkshire Regiment’s move from the Western Front to Italy 1917 (from War Diary)

In November the battalion was ordered to Italy. The move was in two halves by train, starting on 22nd November. The journey, via Arras, Dijon, Amiens, Troyes, Ville Franche, Chambery, Marseille, Toulon, Cannes, Nice and Monte Carlo to the Italian border took four days. About two more days brought the battalion halves to Nogaro, in the Dolomites, travelling via Milan and Pavia. Here, the war diary notes that “Arrangements for the journey on the whole were excellent, although the long halt of four hours each day, which had been promised us, could not be given owing to the congestion of the trains, and uncertainty of the time table, yet at least twice every day, hot tea or coffee was issued to the men.”