SMLE markings

[Eassierider]

Hello all,

Having just acquired an Ishapore-built SMLE MkIII*, made 1916, I've already detected a number of refits and replaced parts etc- which is fine and dandy with me, as I like something with a history. To whit, I prised off the rear handguard to be confronted, as expected, with several markings and wouldn't mind a hand decoding some of them. There's a couple of what I think are inspector's marks, one of which is: crown, above capital letter "A", with a capital "E" diagonally beneath the "A". There's another one with the same arrangement but with an "F" instead of an "E" (which may of course just be an "E" with the bottom missing and is therefore the same mark!). Are these Enfield marks, or possibly Lithgow (the A, I'm thinking)?

At some stage, someone has also incised the capital letters "PR", fairly large and also under the handguard- might this be "Punjab Regiment"? I've noticed at least one BSA inspection mark elsewhere, so think it came out of India and eventually made it's way back, as there are a couple of "RFI" marks including one on the butt plate, so I wonder if it might have been refitted during WWII and sent back out to the Indian garrison, as I believe happened with quite a lot of old Smellies.

Finally, under the nose cap (which seems to have come from a different rifle) there is a broad arrow with either an "N" or a "Z" above "L7"- what's this?

Thanks in advance,

Chris

[4thGordons]

Ishapore built rifles are fascinating to me. Understanding their markings is often complicated by the fact that they stayed in service in India until.... now! and so they often went through several rebuilds (these are usually indicated by FR +Year below the safety)

The picture is even more complicated by the fact that India converted lots of earlier rifles to SMLE format - sometimes with with comprehensive scrubbing of makings and very significant changes.

The markings you have described appear to be typical inspection stamps. Pictures would really help here as there are so many variations and the meaning of many is not entirely clear - they usually indicate inspections at various stages in production.

I am at work at the moment so I can't check until I get home -- but if I am remembering correctly PR is an armourers mark perhaps indicating a replacement barrel (I'll check when I get home) Unit marks would not usually be hidden.

Is the barrel dated? (if so it would usually be on the left hand side lower down - possibly not visible without disassembling the rifle)

It is possible that the A is a Lithgow stamp but in this context unlikely (the A would usually be inside a star in this period -- it would be unusual to find just one such stamp too - but without pictures I am hesitant to comment too definitively on any of this!

Questions for you:

Is your rifle marked

Crown

GRI

Ishapore

1916

ShtLE MkIII*

on the right wrist -- or something else?

Behind the rear sight - is the rifle barrel stamped HV SC?

Does the forestock have a transverse screw through it and does it have a visible metal backstrap at the back of the forestock. These would usually connote post WWII use in India.

Was the rifle built as a MkIII* or was it built as a MkIII and then altered to the MkIII standard? (does the reciever have a slot for the magazine cut-off?) or possibly converted from earlier formats

Are there FR or date stamps on the left side of the reciever under the safety?

Hope this gets you started

Chris

[Eassierider]

Answers to your questions:

1) Yes, it is stamped-

Crown

GRI

Ishapore

1916

ShtLE MkIII*

on the right wrist

2) There is a stamp on the barrel behind the rear sight, but it's really indistinct. There might be an S, but it's hard to make out much else (sorry, I will get some pics up as soon as I can!)

3) Yes, there is an "Ishy screw", but no metal backstrap

4) There's no magazine cut-off or slot for one

5) No FR stamps, but at the back of the receiver, left side, next to the safety, there's one of the RFI stamps I mentioned, above a small number 6. There's also a large, italicised capital N nearby.

So, yes, I think it was used post-Independence.

The two stamps with "A" on them, under the handguard- neither is in a star. I knew there should be a star for Lithgow, but I can't think what else the "A" stands for (I know that as a serial number suffix it means non-standard parts).

As I say, I will post pics soon. Thanks very much, Chris.

Chris

[4thGordons]

Look forward to seeing the pics

I can't find a notation for PR together but individually "P" on the barrel knox form is usually held to indicate a replacement barrel and "R" a "replacement" or "reserve" barrel - these would seem to duplicate each other in this context unless the indication is that it was "reserve" barrel that was used as a replacement! (I assume the barrel is numbered to the receiver)

An "N" on the left side of the reciver usually indicates Naval usage - (although it is not usually an italicized N)

The usual Indian inspection markings are Crown over GRI so I am still puzzling over the A inspection stamp - I'll have a look at a couple of mine and see if there is anything similar

Is there a stamping in the side of the butt? IAS with an arrow or perhaps SAI arrow (both in a roundel)

I just had a glance at Robert Edwards "India's Enfield" and he indicates MkIII* production did not start until 1917 so a 1916 marked one would be unusually early if he is correct. Edwards puts MkIII* production at @58,000 rifles between 1917 and 1919. Other sources (Stratton) suggest the change over from MkIII to MkIII* came in 1916 between serial numbers 95180 and A8659

What is the serial prefix on your rifle? according to the observed data it is probably A or B.

Off to have a look for that stamp.

Chris

[Story]

I just had a glance at Robert Edwards "India's Enfield" and he indicates MkIII* production did not start until 1917 so a 1916 marked one would be unusually early if he is correct. Edwards puts MkIII* production at @58,000 rifles between 1917 and 1919. Other sources (Stratton) suggest the change over from MkIII to MkIII* came in 1916 between serial numbers 95180 and A8659

What page in Stratton did that serial number range come from?

http://www.uiweb.uid...n/Enhistory.htm

For what it's worth, the Indian Army noted in it's United Service Journals that the cut-offs were retrofitted post-war (return to basic riflery skills and fire control methods, vs. the distraction of relying on machineguns in East Africa).

So a factory pure MkIII* might have languished until WWII.

[4thGordons]

What page in Stratton did that serial number range come from?

http://www.uiweb.uid...n/Enhistory.htm

p134 (British Enfield Rifles Vol1 2nd Rev. Ed SMLE (No1) Rifles MkI and MkIII) North Cape Publications

These data were compiled by the Enfield Research Associates based on observations and are thus incomplete. Unfortunately I know of no systematic attempt to continue to add to the dataset Skip used.

and yes, as you say from 1920 until the outbreak of WWII rifles were made to MkIII standard and MkIII* rifles were often refinished to MkIII standard with the * being lined out and the cutoff added.

Chris

EDIT: here are a couple of snaps of one of mine showing some of the standard markings.... I knew I had seen PR before - its on a couple of my Ishapores too.

This one is a 1915 converted in 1940 to a .303 S/L format.

Barrel Marks (Is the "A stamp" on yours perhaps SA like here?_

Inspection marks on receiver and barrel

Stock roundel

[Eassierider]

Sorry for the delay- work...kids...wife etc etc.

Anyway. The serial number thing has me wondering- receiver and barrel are both numbered 22329 A, which is way off what you expected and kind of ties in with the possibility that both were replacements. I believe "A" as a suffix was adopted to mean "non-standard parts"? There are other bits with different serial numbers (bolt handle, forestock- can't make that one out, but there are 4s in it). I was also wondering if "A" on the inspection marks might be "Admiralty", if the "N" is "Naval"? I include some snaps (finally!)- having seen it close up the "A" inspection mark seems to have "FS" or "ES" underneath.

And another:

And another (with the "N"):

[4thGordons]

Hmmm everythign looks pretty standard to me. Apart from the N! That looks to me to be engraved (aka electro pencilled) rather than stamped and I think that would probably make it WWII or later I do not believe I have seen that marking before.

It would also appear the bolt is an un-numbered replacement (not uncommon)

I'll have to check my references but I do not believe I have heard of A being used to indicate non standard parts...I'll just check. I think it is probably just part of the serial number - they are sometimes stamped in odd configurations but always seem to be recorded as prefixes. I'll look into this.

Is this rifle deactivated or is it still live?

Chris

[Eassierider]

It's deactivated. And was DP only by the end, in any case.

[4thGordons]

I had a look through my refs.

The only reference to A I could find was in respect of stampings on No4 rifles magazines (WWII vintage) where Skennerton notes it means "not interchangeable"

So in this context I am now even more convinced that it is simply part of the serial number.

Still none the wiser on the N.

Chris

[Thunderbox]

The rifle looks like a standard Ishy. Would be nice to see a photo of the right butt socket, with the date. The bolt is a recent civilian replacement - in Indian service they properly numbered and blacked replacement bolts.

"A" suffix only refers to No4s when it refers to "hand fitted" or "non intercangeable" parts. In every other Enfield context its simply part of the number.

Likewise "N" marks usually only mean "Naval" when stamped on the left side of the butt socket of a British rifle. There are many other "N"s, and their meaning is lost to history. The "N" on the left boltway of this rifle is similar to other letters seen in that position, also engraved in a type of italic script. AFAIK no-one has identified these marks, but they may be some kind of Indian factory or arsenal (FTR) inspection mark as this location is commonly reserved for that purpose.

The markings guide published by Skennerton only covers a fraction of the marks seen on Enfields - there were many different marks applied in the 100 different countries that used Enfields, and most marks are completely unidentified - particularly the production marks on No4 receivers and barrels. You also have to be very careful about extrapolating the known use of marks listed in Skennerton, which are mostly based on a limited number of official British and Dominion publications. A good example is the "asterisk" denoting "rust in the bore" or similar. This mark was an official mark on the barrels of British No1s for a certain period. In fact there are many other types of asterisk observed - including a common type that appears on the knox form of No1s and No4s - which clearly do not refer to bore damage (ie the barrel is a replaceable item, so why permanently mark the receiver?).

[Eassierider]

The date, etc. Has there been drilling, by the way?

[4thGordons]

3) Yes, there is an "Ishy screw", but no metal backstrap

oooh you fibber! there's the backstrap!

(so this a replacement post WWII forend)

Chris

[Eassierider]

Oh, ok! Not actually seen a backstrap (until now)!

[4thGordons]

I am not sure but this little guide I put together some time ago might be of interest (although you are a bit beyond it now). At some point I should complete it.

I am not sure what you mean by drilling? Some Indian DP rifles had a large hole drilled through the chamber. Others simply had the firing pin cut off and the firing pin hole in the bolt face blocked with a blob of weld.

I am not sure what the current standards are for deactivating in the UK is an obstruction welded in the barrel? or a chunk cut out (of the lower side covered by the forend?) On some examples I have seen, the locking lugs on the bolt are also ground off, is this the case with yours? (as mentioned the bolt appears to be an unnumbered replacement)

I believe several standards have existed over the years with varying degrees of deactivation required.

Chris

[Thunderbox]

Pity it was de-acted. It does look like one of the very first Ishapore III* rifles that were made - must have been late 1916. You can see that they actually used the roll-stamp for a MkIII (because the "III" is central to the rest of the script) and then added the "*" afterwards.

[Eassierider]

Thanks, all, for your help. So my initial amateurish assessment wasn't too far off the money, really! But I'm no nearer knowing what some of the marks mean; in the folorn hope someone has seen them, I attach my impression of the two I'm most interested in (it's actually quite difficult to part-strip a rifle, do graphic art and type while holding a crying baby, but I've done it anyway- a useful survival skill one day, perhaps?). Fig. 1 is on the nose cap by the bayonet lug, fig.2 is under the rear handguard and I'm wondering if it might be modern, in fact.

[Thunderbox]

Fig 2 is a common type of post-war Ishapore inspection stamp. Isahpore used a modern font and capital letters, and these are commonly seen on No1s and 2A/1s.

Fig 1 might be an old LSA&Co inspection stamp, but it depends upon the font. If its italic script, its British r pre-war Indian; if modern, see above.

[Eassierider]

Just realised I haven't thanked you for the above. Very remiss of me- thanks! It's italicised, by the way (evidently my feeble rendering didn't show this).

[Deerhunter]

I am not sure but this little guideI put together some time ago might be of interest (although you are a bit beyond it now). At some point I should complete it.

I am not sure what you mean by drilling? Some Indian DP rifles had a large hole drilled through the chamber. Others simply had the firing pin cut off and the firing pin hole in the bolt face blocked with a blob of weld.

I am not sure what the current standards are for deactivating in the UK is an obstruction welded in the barrel? or a chunk cut out (of the lower side covered by the forend?) On some examples I have seen, the locking lugs on the bolt are also ground off, is this the case with yours? (as mentioned the bolt appears to be an unnumbered replacement)

I believe several standards have existed over the years with varying degrees of deactivation required.

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for sharing that guide - really interesting; lots of useful information.