John_Hartley Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 In "Home Front", Ian Beckett asserts that "Munitionettes also earned the same kind of reputation for promiscuity as the WAAC". No evidence is provided to support this claim that either group of women were promiscuous and I wonder where this view came came from. If true that it was believed to be so, then I could only guess that, in both cases, the women were working outside of the then social norms for their employment, mixing closely with men and, as such, "must be up for it" (apologies for the crude nature of my comment but I couldnt think of a better wording). Is there any evidence around to supprt Beckett's claim? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 could it just be that men and women were doing what comes naturally????...but then again it sounds better from an "Artistic bent" to sensationalize what people have been doing when being involved in highly dangerous employment ( i.e munitions and being on the recieving end of Munitions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterhogg Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 It takes two to tango. I suspect there would be as much "promiscuity" on the part of men as women, but the women are given the label, unfairly in my view. I suppose the view might have been "they were asking for it", and of course, so were the men. I suspect the label was not infrequently used by men who were told "no". But I do agree that when women took on a more active role in services like munitions and nursing, women were perceived as being more assertive, though this was more a product of having more responsibility and being more prominent in the workforce. All that aside, it would have been awesome for the guys..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 There is evidence to show that this claim is incorrect. Owing to widespread rumours in the press, a committee was set up in 1918, and produced a ten page document of its findings: Report of the Commission of Enquiry appointed by the Minister of Labour to enquire into the Women’s Army Auxiliary Corps in France (1918) They include a breakdown of figures showing a very tiny percentage of pregnancies among the women, and to quote a couple of relevant paragraphs which follow: 'We consider that these figures are in themselves a refutation of the current slanders which, naturally, have caused considerable alarm and distress among the friends and relations of women already enrolled and a very detrimental effect on recruiting. We also wish to point out the pain and indignation caused among members of the Corps returning home on leave when confronted by these allegations... ...In conclusion we desire to repeat our belief that the vague charges of immoral conduct on a large scale brought against the W.A.A.C. in France rest on no foundation in fact. They are disproved in the first place by the figures given in paragraph 4, and our personal observations of the conditions under which some of the girls were living and working in no sense indicated a troublesome or undesirable state of affairs.' If women were sexually active, which undoubtedly some were, it couldn't have been that many, as taking into account the crudity of contraception at the time the pregnancy figures would have been higher. It's so easy to continue the libel ninety years on! Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 30 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2012 Many thanks, Sue. Your quote seems to confirm Beckett's use of "reputation" - in the sense that it appears to be reputed that...... And it also confirms that rumour and gossip were not accurate. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 But it doesn't confirm Beckett's use of the word 'earned', which is unfortunate, in the sentence you quoted. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 I hadn't read the whole report until today, but it's extremely interesting. I'll type it out and put it on the web over the next few days just for general interest. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 30 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2012 A heads-up when you've done that, please, Sue. I wonder if Women's Land Army women - or, indeed, other organised groups of women - also got the same tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 WW2 saw the Auxiliary Territorial Service (ATS) women commonly referred to as 'Officers' Groundsheets' so it was probably a fairly universal (mis)representation of women over decades. I suspect that the Land Army and Forestry women were not in such obvious contact with men during their work (except for Farmer Brown's three sons who must have had a wow of a time ) I'll put a link to the report on this thread when it's viewable. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 I believe that there was also speculation (almost entirely unfounded) about the morals of British nurses serving overseas.Comments on the behaviour of any particular group of women need to be seen in the general context of ia loosening of inhibitions in wartime. As is remarked in The Gentlemen of the Party, A. G. Street's factual novel of the Fovant area (west of Salisbury) in wartime, , 'girls were at a premium, and many of them loved too well, only to find when trouble came that their lovers were overseas'. One of the book's characters remarks that 'half the [village] 'oomen to-day be hoors … there's one thing what 'ave got cheaper. An' that's 'oomen. They do vling it at 'ee, wi out waitin' to be asked. Dirty bitches.' Street himself wrote "the newspapers might print articles telling how splendid the girls were, and in many cases these articles might be justified. But in any camp district during that hectic period of history, 1914 to 1918, the older men and women knew that the girls, both native-borne and war-imported, were anything but splendid." Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 I believe that there was also speculation (almost entirely unfounded) about the morals of British nurses serving overseas. I've searched hard to find evidence of 'loose morals' among nurses in France, and it ain't easy, though I've certainly got the names and addresses of a few who got pregnant if anyone wants to send them hate mail or tracts from the Bible I include a section in one of my talks on that aspect of their 'service' and have to say it's usually the most popular part with the audience! Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 I think there was a political aspect to this with the impugning of women's morals designed to also deter them from continuing their designs on men's jobs and the vote. As Harry Enfield's character said :- "Women, know your place!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 I believe with WAAC's and VAD's, if they wanted to go 'walking out' with a soldier/officer, they had to be escorted at all times by one other woman to make sure nothing untoward happened - can anyone confirm this for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 Sue did you do anything with the report. I would be interested to see a copy. Just before I logged on and found this thread I had read that one of the Commission was Julia Varley who has Birmingham/\Black Country connections as a trade unionist. In June 1918 she spoke on the subject at a factory gate meeting at the Austin,Longbridge, Birmingham. On 'slanders on the women of the WAAC'/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 Sue did you do anything with the report. Alan No, not between 7.03 p.m. this evening and now but I will, as soon as my typing fingers wake up and finish the household chores tomorrow!! And yes, Julia Varley's name is on the bottom, together with: Lucy A. E. Deane Streatfield (Chairman) Mary Carlin Violet Markham (Hon. Secretary) Muriel Ritson Will type as quickly as possible - I promise. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 I believe with WAAC's and VAD's, if they wanted to go 'walking out' with a soldier/officer, they had to be escorted at all times by one other woman to make sure nothing untoward happened - can anyone confirm this for me? No, it's a myth, spread particularly by Canadian historians (tongue firmly in cheek and head in bunker). It was not thought particularly desirable for them to fraternize, but of course many of them did, without too many problems And along the way a great number of them managed to get engaged, married and pregnant, hopefully in that order, presumably not watched over at all times by a third party. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 30 October , 2012 Share Posted 30 October , 2012 Thanks Sue I was expecting a miracle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 30 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2012 (except for Farmer Brown's three sons who must have had a wow of a time ) I wouldnt be sure even about that. Personal accounts I've read (at IWM & Liddle) suggest the WLA women were working so hard and for such long hours that, ahem, social activities were very minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 The question of promiscuity is interesting but what would you do with the answer? Yes I would make an assumption some women were promiscuious. the uniformed services do to a point reflect and exagerate the times and given the closeness and shared experiences would, on occassion, lead to men and women (or men and men or women and women) seeking comfort or just enjoyment. Bennet wasn't lying, he talks about reputation not a fact. I worked side by side with QA's and they suffered the indignity of the acronym being changed to Quick And Ready And Never Caught, some were promiscuous, most weren't, but it has never mattered in the eyes of those who enjoy a good sex story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 Hope it is not too late for Sue but I have found the Commission's report via a google search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 Type, type, type ... type, type, type ... cup of tea, yawn, type, type type ... No problem Alan - I'm half-way through and will finish it and get it on the website today, as in that form it makes it very much easier if anyone wants to copy, cut and paste etc. And of course, being a woman I was born to type Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 Article of interest Here From Here Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 . cup of tea And of course, being a woman I was born to type Sue Yes, and cut out the tea, you don't have time for that. Harumph! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalredcross Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 It's all part and parcel of the attitudes of the time. (But see Austin Mitchell MP recently !!) Women were stepping outside their perceived roles and needed to be put down. Where ever men and women were serving together these kind of rumours and slanders arise. The infant WRAF suffered the same thing about their drivers at Hurst Park depot. Helen Gwynne-VBaughan has something to say about it in Service with the Army. NGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 31 October , 2012 Share Posted 31 October , 2012 Yes, and cut out the tea, you don't have time for that. Harumph! Sorry, delayed by copious amounts of tea, a trip to the shops, baking biscuits ... Here's the web page with the report. Apologies for any typos of the type not picked up by a spell-check. Report of Committee of Enquiry into WAAC in France Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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