2 of the scarcer 1907 bayonets by Vickers and Mole

[TonyE]

I am no bayonet specialist, but the following may be of interest.

I have a copy of the Ministry of Munitions contract list showing all orders and delivery position on 31st March 1917, and this is one of the many documents Ian worked with (in fact we both obtained it from the same source). There is no order shown for the P.'07 bayonets as at 31.3.17, but that is not surprising.

What does illustrate the problems of bayonet production at Vickers is the order for the P.'13 bayonets which is shown.

"Bayonets, sword, Pattern 1913. 50,000 ordered under 94/B/3080, 14,10.16.

Delivery: 250 per week from 2.12.16, rising by 250 per week to 5,000 per week, 17.2.17.

No. due: Part. No. delivered: 410."

Thus at a time when they were supposed to be delivering 5,000 per week they had actually delivered 410.

Perhaps the P.'07 production followed a similar pattern?

Unfortunately, despite searches in the archives here and abroad, no-one has ever found a similar document for the period to the end of the war.

Regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

shipping steel,

Many of the most respected writers/researchers on bayonets, who no doubt did their proper research and due diligence on the subject before publishing, not just Skennerton and Richardson, all came up with the same 10,000 Vickers P1907 production figure, making the Vickers P1907 by far the scarcest of the P1907 British production bayonets.

I am sure many, just like yourself, would loved to have been the first to disprove and debunk the Vickers 10,000 figure, and as yet, nobody, not one person has been able to disproved that 10,000 figure, including yourself.

In fact, I think it is much more of a ' myth ' that the figure is more than 10,000!

Anyway, I wish you God speed with your project, and if you are ever able to document and categorically prove a production figure of more than 10,000 P1907 bayonets for Vickers, and remember, none of this ' everyone I know has one ' spurious argument, I mean serious and credible research with documentation, please remember to give this Thread a mention, as I would like to share a little of the glory, the worldwide fame, the television appearances, the book signings etc., as it appears to have been my Thread which started you on your valiant quest, dare I say ' Quixotic ' venture.

Also, can you treat your quest as something of a matter of urgency, as I am not getting any younger, and although I hope to be around for at least another 20/25 years, I am fearful that you may not complete your project before I go off to that big Forum in the sky.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

Many of the most respected writers/researchers on bayonets, who no doubt did their proper research and due diligence on the subject before publishing, not just Skennerton and Richardson, all came up with the same 10,000 Vickers P1907 production figure, making the Vickers P1907 by far the scarcest of the P1907 British production bayonets.

Can you possibly substantiate the above statement with references to those books and authors that you mention, as I for one would like to see what they said.? (I am not aware of any)

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Unfortunately, despite searches in the archives here and abroad, no-one has ever found a similar document for the period to the end of the war.

TonyE, thanks for your input - are you aware of the document that Skennerton quoted in B&CB stating deliveries from Vickers as of 13th October 1917.? It seems to be the main data.?

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

{ groan}

May I ask if there is any disagreement that the contract for Siam was for 10,000 bayonets and rifles?

If so then the Siam marked bayonets must be amongst the scarecer types must they not? (as I hinted much earlier) and their existence alone would challenge the claim that 10,000 Vickers produced bayonets were "by far the scarcest of the P1907 British production bayonets*" regardless of any challenges to the Vickers numbers (unless the claim is the actual numbers are LOWER which I take it no one is saying)

* I am aware that somone might dispute their inclusion as this was a post war contract - but it was fulfilled by a British firm (BSA) using refinished GW production bayonets so I think they probably count as British Production......

BTW - I have no dog in this fight! (but just the odd cat! )

[Lancashire Fusilier]

* I am aware that somone might dispute their inclusion as this was a post war contract - but it was fulfilled by a British firm (BSA) using refinished GW production bayonets so I think they probably count as British Production......

Chris,

No disrespect to Siam,

I was really thinking more about British made bayonets supplied to the British Army during WW1.

Ex-WW1 surplus bayonets which were refinished by a third party and then supplied to a foreign Siamese Army in 1920, to my mind do not quailify!

There may even have been other such third party deals even after 1920 where WW1 British Army surplus was supplied to small foreign Armies like that in Siam ( I think it is now called Burma ? ).

So on the grounds of this being a WW1 Forum, and your Siamese remakes being 1920's, I am afraid I shall have to rule you ' Off Topic '

Regards,

LF

[TonyE]

TonyE, thanks for your input - are you aware of the document that Skennerton quoted in B&CB stating deliveries from Vickers as of 13th October 1917.? It seems to be the main data.?

Cheers, S>S

I cannot say for sure which document Ian used for his figures, but one possible candidate is the weekly delivery schedules published by the Ministry of Munitions, copies of which are in the National Archives here. I have not checked the later ones as at the time I refrenced them I was researching the delivery of Ross and Pattern '14 rifles so did not go past mid 1917.

I can go to the NA and have a look at them to see if there are any clues there, but it will not be for a couple of weeks.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Thanks again for your interest TonyE. I am always amazed as to where all this type of information comes from - as you know I tend to work at the other end of the spectrum.!

If you happened to be going to the NA by chance that would be great if you could have a look, but please don't go out of your way on my account, it's really not that big a deal.

From what was quoted in the book it does seem like the info came from the delivery schedules, which is good as the figures stated were 'confirmed' production, not just orders.

All the numbers stated for the P1907 production were listed as 'deliveries' which you would think tends to rule out any of the supposed vagaries with the Vickers production line.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Armies like that in Siam ( I think it is now called Burma ? ).

Siam was what is modern Thailand I believe.

Burma (Republic of the Union of Myanmar) is their neighbour to the NW.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Siam was what is modern Thailand I believe.

Burma (Republic of the Union of Myanmar) is their neighbour to the NW.

Chris

I knew it was in that area.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

this was a post war contract - but it was fulfilled by a British firm (BSA) using refinished GW production bayonets so I think they probably count as British Production......

attachment=160147:SiamSet.jpg]

Chris,

If I can stray off topic just for one question, and then I shall move it to Skindles.

Do any of your 1920s Siamese reworked bayonets have a steel scabbard ?, as reading various reports on these Siamese bayonets, it seems that they were originally supplied with leather scabbards, and then the Siamese quickly discovered that the leather scabbards soon perished in the Siamese climate, so all the leather scabbards were replaced with Siamese steel scabbards and the metal parts from the old leather scabbards were brazed onto the new steel scabbard shells, so authentic Siamese Fighting Tiger bayonet and scabbard sets have steel scabbards.

Attached is a photograph of such a Siamese bayonet with its steel scabbard.

As I said, this subject is strictly off topic, and I have now moved it to Skindles for any response.

Regards,

LF

[4thGordons]

All of them have steel scabbards.

I have only ever seen one of the original leather scabbards (these have the tiger mark impressed in the leather too)

FWIW I do not think this is off topic - these are WWI blades used later and as such are as on topic as Pre WWI kit used in the war or almost every single firearm shown on the forum, all of which probably continued in use post war.

Chris

[findabetterole]

Ayup... Missed Me?

Its nice to back chaps, so lets get straight to it.

TonyE.. From what I have been able to find out during my years of collecting the '07', is that productioon of the Vickers '07' tailed off when the USA entered the war, and the contracts were cancelled for the Pattern 1913 Bayonet. Vickers deemed it more important to switch to full production of Machine Guns, rather than loose part of its inventory capacity to producing bayonets for the USA. America as we all know, and history has shown, has a far greater capacity for arms production than Blighty.In the same light, Vickers decided to continue on a thin line, and honour as much as possible the bayonet contract for the War Office. This is the reason why the figure which you have so aptly forcast... did not come anywhere near the numbers expected.

Seph

[4thGordons]

Blimey! He's back!

Welcome back Seph!

Chris

[findabetterole]

Thanks Chris... very nice to finally be back..... and I see things have been slipping! Soon put that right though once I get back into the swing.

Seph

[Leonardo]

Hi Guys,

First let me say that I'm not a collector, and know very little about militaria. But looking for some information on my father's Vickers P1913 bayonet, I came across sawdoc34's post (22/05/11) where he wanted some evidence to show that his one was a genuine original. There appeared to be so much interest, that I thought I must join your forum so that I could add a little more information to the wealth of experiance you all have. Hopefully my pictures will help settle the debate, as the markings on this one are almost identical. I assume the gap in the bottom of the "C" was caused by the stamp being chipped at that point. Looking through the various posts, figures for numbers manufactured are around 15000, if so this would be quite a rare item.

If of interest, I'll try to get a better picture of some of the markings that don't show up too well.

[shippingsteel]

Hello Leonardo and welcome to the forum. Thank you for posting the photos of your bayonet, because as you know the Vickers P1913 are very scarce indeed.

I have put the photos up together as a comparison and as you can see the markings are close to identical, with only small differences in some depths of strike.

My opinion is that they are both very genuine examples, but I do think your own may have had a later refurbishment, as can be seen with the bluing on ricasso.

Cheers, S>S

[Leonardo]

Hello S>S,

Thanks for your reply. Were these often refurbished? The blade is certainly in very good condition, with virtually no rust, and to the best of my knowledge, has been in a cupboard for at least the last 60 years. Assuming it hasn't seen much "service", I would expect to see the bluing like that. Or are you saying they were not originally blued?

I certainly like the item, but with no sons to pass it on to, I was considering selling it. If it went in an auction, any idea what sort of reserve I should put on it?

Regards,

Len

[shippingsteel]

Were these often refurbished? Assuming it hasn't seen much "service", I would expect to see the bluing like that. Or are you saying they were not originally blued?

They were not originally blued like that, which indicates that this bayonet has been refurbished, which was normal for any bayonet that stayed on in military service after issue.

Bayonets that continued on in British service are normally seen with reissue marks (dates) on the ricasso, however these were shipped to all corners of the globe after the war.

Which means the refurbishment could have been done anywhere or at anytime up to or post WW2. As for price these are rare bayonets so think in the range of a P1907 hookie.

Cheers, S>S

[Leonardo]

Thanks S>S, I'm learning all the time.

Regards,

Len

[trajan]

R. Mole and Sons of Granville Street, Birmingham produced the second lowest number of Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets, estimated at only some 60,000 again as compared with Wilkinson's 2.25+ million bayonets.

My Mole Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet is dated 7 15 for July

While looking for information on when the waxing of P.1907 scabbards was introduced I found this piece by a Robert Wilkinson-Latham on Mole bayonet production which some GWF bayonet fans may have missed - it is reproduced (some editing done and emphasis added) from: http://www.enfieldcollector.com/archive.html

"When Wilkinsons closed swordmaking, there was a mass of papers ... Amongst them were Sword production records of Robert Mole ... It shows Mole's 1907 bayonet production. They made the Patt '07 bayonet from 1908 to 1911 and then in 1914 and 1915 only, all their efforts being transferred to 1908 Pattern cavalry swords which they made every year from 1908 until 1919 with the exception of 1913.

They made 1888 until 1901 and in 1901 and 1902 made 1888 Mk III.

In 1903-04 they converted 1888 to pattern 1903, made new 1903s in 1903-04.

In 1916 they produced screws and nuts for 'Sword Bayonet Wire Breaker' @ 5/9 per dozen.

They also made spare components for RSAF Sparkbrook such as Bolts, malleable with edged trimmed only at 2 1/2 pennies each.

Mole's prices:

1888: 11/- 1888 Mk III: 9/6 1888 converted to 1903: 9/6

1903: 10/-

1907: 10/- reducing to 9/- and then in 1914-15, price rose to 11/-

Not earth shattering but part of the picture and explains Mole's low production figures for 1907"

[5thBatt]

It shows Mole's 1907 bayonet production. They made the Patt '07 bayonet from 1908 to 1911 and then in 1914 and 1915 only,

My 3'16 & 9'18 MOLE 1907s

Clearer photo of markings on the '18

My VICKERS

[shippingsteel]

My 3'16 & 9'18 MOLE 1907s

Yes you have to be very careful who you listen to in this business.

You wouldn't happen to have photos of the other side ricasso's by any chance.? The Mole P1907's will be the only wartime bayonets to have Birmingham inspections.

Cheers, S>S

[5thBatt]

Yes you have to be very careful who you listen to in this business.

You wouldn't happen to have photos of the other side ricasso's by any chance.? The Mole P1907's will be the only wartime bayonets to have Birmingham inspections.

Cheers, S>S

Left my camera at work, so will do sometime though next week.

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for the offer 5thBatt, but don't worry too much about it. Just a confirmation of the inspection markings found on your P1907's will certainly suffice.

They should be something like those shown below. Mole were the only wartime manufacturer to use the italic B, and M9 seems to be the inspector code.

Of course the italic B stands for Birmingham Small Arms and is commonly seen on the BSA rifles. And Robert Mole was also based locally in Birmingham.

Cheers, S>S