How did he die?

[Noyes16]

Dear All,

My great grandfather's youngest brother, John Noyes, was killed on 11th July 1916 whilst fighting in Mametz Wood with the 15th Welsh. His death certificate states he was 'killed in action' but exactly how he died is a mystery. According to the battalion diary, the 15th Welsh saw little action that day. The diary does mention that the battalion was hit by their division's own artillery but it doesn't state if there were any casualties as a result. Could anyone tell me whether the term 'killed In action' was also used when British soldiers were killed by their own artillery?

Many thanks.

[bill24chev]

I beleive that "killed in action" was used for any casualty who died from direct cause of the war.

This could be in an attack, holding trenches, or on the lines of communication that could came under enemy artillery or air attack.

There are some grey areas between KIA and Died of Wounds, for example a soldier who died after surviving some time before they could be evacuated although technicaly died of wounds may have been classified KIA.

It would not have been good for morale if what are now called "blue on blue" incidents found there way back to Blighty.

[John_Hartley]

Could anyone tell me whether the term 'killed In action' was also used when British soldiers were killed by their own artillery?

Yes.

[sotonmate]

N16

15 Welsh seem to have been in reserve for 114 Brigade of 38 Division,both 13 and 14 Welsh of the same Brigade were in the line so it is likely that 15 were not far behind and would have been in artillery range at least.

Sotonmate

[roughdiamond]

84 men of the Welsh died that day, equating to 6 pages on the CWGC results page, 4 men of the 15 on page 1 were 15th Bn, if you check the other 69 you might find there are more.

Sam

[little bob]

Using Geoff's search engine, 52 of the 84 men killed on the 11th July were from the 15th Bn.

Bob

[IPT]

According to SDGW, there were 54 casualties from the 15th Bn that day.

[roughdiamond]

Using Geoff's search engine, 52 of the 84 men killed on the 11th July were from the 15th Bn.

Bob

Hardly sounds as if "the 15th Welsh saw little action that day".

Sam

[little bob]

War Diary 15th Welsh Regiment

10/7/1916

In position Pommiers Redoubt

10/7/1916 - 11/7/1916 - 12/7/1916

Attack on Manetz Wood.

12/7/1916 9am

Relieved in wood.

Bob

[Noyes16]

Thanks for all the info. I hope he wasn't killed as a result of the 38th Division's own artillery bombardment as another of his brothers was in the RFA with the Division. I'm guessing the war diary was trying to play down the number of casualties the battalion suffered that day. When it attacked the N.W. of Mametz Wood on the 11th July the diary states "No enemey met". After a later German artillery bombardment the diary states "few casualties were reported". I'm guessing I'll never know exactly how he died and he has no known grave either. Very sad.

[larney]

The mention of the 15th Welsh seeing little action during the attack on Mametz Wood is totally wrong I'm afraid. They may have been in reserve, but were soon called into action, suffering severe casualties, which included the loss of the two most senior officers of the 15th Welsh being killed (Majors Phillips and Anthony). A complete Platoon was trapped in the Hammerhead, and wiped out by enfilade machine-gun fire from Flatiron Copse and the Caterpillar.

The battalion also gained as many, if not more, gallantry awards for Mametz Wood than any of the other battalions of the Welsh Regiment which were involved.

Casualties in total among the 38th (Welsh) Division ran to 190 Officers and 3,803 Other Ranks Killed, Wounded or Missing.

The 15th Welsh lost 12 Officers and 233 Other Ranks Killed, Wounded or Missing, similar figures to the 10th and 13th Welsh, but less than the 14th Welsh, which took a hammering, with 12 Officers and 376 Other Ranks.

As far as finding out how John Robert Noyes died, it is almost impossible to say, and would have been almost impossible at the time. Your family would have received a condolence letter from one of the surviving officers, but it's pretty reasonable to say that many of the letters sent home to bereaved parents were dressed up a bit- i.e 'your son was shot in the head by a sniper and died instantly, with no pain...he was buried on the battlefield...' No-one would have written to bereaved parents and wives that their sons were blown to pieces, or badly wounded and suffered, and these letters were meant to attempt to bring some closure and consolement. Even any surviving service papers to men of the battalion who were killed in the wood are very vague, however a couple of men are shown as having been buried after the battle, and are now commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, so graves were definitely lost.

The situation within Mametz Wood was chaotic, with various units being mixed up, and often with no officers to lead them- RWF, SWB and Welsh Regiment units all intermingled, fighting hand to hand against seasoned German troops, under shellfire which created shrapnel and deadly splinters of wood to fly around them. Although the official maps and all of the relevent books (including my Carmarthen Pals book) show dispositions within the wood at certain times during the battle, it's hard to see how this can have been known accurately.

My Great Uncle Harry Allen was shot in the chest at Mametz Wood (again the letter home said it was by a sniper!) while serving with the 15th Welsh, and was evacuated to Heilly, where he died on 11 July. It's nice to have a grave to visit whenever I go out there, but he would have suffered during his final hours, as I suspect the long jurney down to there wouldn't have been too comfortable for a dying man.

On the other hand, my Great Grandfather was leading a patrol at Mouquet Farm when they were attacked by a strong German patrol, which attacked them with guns and grenades. Two of his men escaped, but both him and another man were lost forever. It took months for him to be officially reported as missing, presumed dead, and he is commemorated on the Villers Brettoneux Memorial, so in a way he's a very similar case to John Noyes. Sometimes it's better not to know how our relatives suffered and died, but I do often wonder what exactly happened to him in his last minutes.

I'm afraid my post is all a bit rambling, but hopefully it will help you to understand what the situation would have been like within Mametz Wood!

SteveJ.

[John_Hartley]

I'm guessing the war diary was trying to play down the number of casualties the battalion suffered that day.

Unlikely. There's absolutely no reason for a war diary to be deliberately less than accurate in this regard.