mikebear63 Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Hi Can anyone help me with any details about the location oif Lichtervelde German Military Cemetery and Hospital? I know several Northumberland Fusiliers who were wounded in action on 27 October 1917 just south of Houthulst Forest were buried here and concentrated into Harelbeke Military Cemnetery - three are buried side by side. Any help on a more precise location would be very gratefully recieved. Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Mike This is the (only) information I have on Lichtervelde Ehrenfriedhof. It was in the Torhoutstraat, northwest of the village. (Another source says : between Torthoutstraat and Hoogwielstraat. I have not tried to find out yet if this is correct, or in contradiction.) The informatyion I have was found in D. Verhelst, "Het Duits Militair Kerkhof 1914-1918 in Hooglede", Kortrijk, 1996, p. 121-122. Graves : - German : 636 (D. Verhelst, o.c.) ; an older source, early 1920s) says 563 (I can't explain the difference) - British : 14 (original CWGC-register Harlebeke New British Cemetery), 15 (D. Verhelst, o.c.)., an older source : 12. - French : 2 (D. Verhelst, o.c.) - Russian : 2 (original CWGC-register Harlebeke NewBritish Cemetery, and D. Verhelst, o.c.). Sorry, no pic or so. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Mike, I can't help with the cemetery location as my German map doesn't go out that far, but I did find these references to Field Hospitals in the "Verlustliste: Württembergisches Reserve-Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 26": Feld-Lazarett Nr. 502 in Lichtervelde (Roulers), Flandern (September 1917) Feld-Lazarett Nr. 394 in Lichtervelde (Roulers), Flandern (October & November 1917) Feld-Lazarett Nr. 253 in Lichtervelde (Roulers), Flandern (October & November 1917) Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 According to this source (in Dutch) the friedhof was between Torhoutstraat and Hoogwielstraat. It has a small map showing the location (marked "i"). According to another source (pdf, sadly also in Dutch) the German hospital was in the church of Lichtervelde since summer of 1917. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebear63 Posted 9 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Dear Aurel, Phil and Roel FANTASTIC. This is brilliant. Helps to pin it down almost perfectly to the metre - wonderful after 100 years. Thank you so much. I didn't hope it could be this good. Best Wishes Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Mike, I am not sure what I am writing is 100% correct, but I think I am pretty close. Starting from the link Roel gave to the webpagee (in Dutch). So the cemetery was between the Torhoutstraat and the Hoogwiel(ke)straat. The latter is a road leading northwest from Lichtervelde centre, approx. 250 - 300 meters east of and parallel with the Torhout(se)straat (which is also leading from the centre to the northwest). It is said that the cemetery was east of the Kapel van O.-L.-Vrouw-van-Altijddurende-Bijstand. (Something like the Chapel of Our Lady of Everlasting Help). There is a chapel in the Torhoutstraat between the houses with number 78 and 80. The chapel does not have that name (anymore), but sure it is a chapel to Our Lady. I think it is the same. (Or maybe rebuilt). It is on the corner of the Torhoutstraat and a path (for bikes and pedestrians) leading to the (Felix) Timmermanslaan, which is a residential area between the Torhoutstraat and the Hogewielkestraat. I think the houses you see to the right in the background are houses of that Timmermanslaan. I think that is where the cemetery must have been, in the Torhoutstraat, between that Torhoutstraat and twoards the Hogewiel(ke)straat. (I am not sure of the correct name of that street, either Hogewielstraat or Hogewielkestraat.) So if ever you go there : start from the beginning of the Torhout(se)straat (at the T-junction with the Boomgaardstraat) ,and after approx. 400 meters you will get to where this Google Streetview pic shows. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Here's another source confirming the hospital was in the local church. It doesn's say that much about WW1, apart from this: "During WW1 used as a hospital. 1918: tower completely destroyed, plus a large part of the building during the German retreat. 1922-1923: church rebuilt, tower reconstructed in original design, but higher." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhausen Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 hello Gents, A group of local "Lichterveldse" historians publish every year something about their town/area. The book of 2010 shows a lot of the first war: from jan 1917 till september 1918. Also a lot of info about kriegslazarette.... and the military cemetery.With respect for copyright I show two pics. But I'm sure you can get information here: www.heemkringlichtervelde.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Ruins of the church Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 The "friedhof" in the second pic of post #8 is the communal cemetery, which was used for military burials in the earlier days of the war. The German Friedhof was a bit more to the north. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Roel, The sketch map appears to be on an old layout and I'm finding it difficult to equate it with Google satellite view, where there is a large cemetery bounded by Hoogwielkesraat, Boomgaardstraat and Gezellelaan. Running north off Gezellelaan is a dead end section of road (southern extension of F. Timmermanslaan?). On the left is a factory and on the right is a small cemetery/memorial garden that looks like it is being landscaped. Is that what is marked on the sketch map? I have located Aurel's chapel and path a couple of hundred metres further north and there is a patch of undeveloped land on the north side where the path becomes the road. Is that the location of the later Friedhof? Phil PS Apologies Mike for hi-jacking but I have a thing about the pre-concentration German cemeteries in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Phil, looking at the first link in post #4 (where "i" marks the location of the Friedhof) I'd say the cemetery was somewhere around the dead end street, leading to the patch of undeveloped land. Although I'd like to think Aurel has found the right chapel in the Torhoutstraat (the cemetery used to be east of this chapel between Torhoutstraat and Hoogwielstraat) I'm not 100% sure. The chapel we're looking for was called "De kapel van Onze-Lieve-Vrouw-van-Altijddurende-Bijstand", and the chapel in the Torhoutstraat is called "het kapelletje van de Valke" (built in 1866, so its age is not the problem). Lichtervelde has 22 chapels, so plenty of choice... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Thanks Roel. Very imprecise but I scaled the sketch map and plotted the distance (about 500m) on Google Maps and it matched up with Aurel's location. I guess only a contemporary map is going to give us the answer. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebear63 Posted 11 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Hi Everyone You are quite brilliant. Maps, images, books. I could not have expected so much success - or interest. Phil, please do not apoligise. I don't feel hi-jacked. I am flattered by the attention to detail which is being so helpful. I think what you are all doing is fantastic. Thank you all Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 Just to say - replying after reading Roel's recent posting # 12 - that I myself have a bit of a problem too with the name of the chapel. Not finding back the name "O.-L.-Vrouw-van-Altijddurende-Bijstand" in the present chapel that I posted a Streetview pic of in my posting # 6, is a somewhat disappointing surprise. Normally I would thing that chapels never lose their original name... As to the cemetery near the centre. Yes, that is the communal cemetery (that was used for military burials before the more northward cemetery was laid out). I have a photo of the cemetery (actually one I must have downloaded from Eddy's ("Cnock"'s) posting a while ago). Also : it's a photo of a German grave in the first place. But as it shows Lichtervelde church in the not so far background, I didn't post it, as no doubt it shows the communal cemetery. Aurel (Eager to see a photo of the German cemetery. Sure there must have been photos or even postcards of it. No photo of it in the Lichtervelde 2010 book, van Smallhausen ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhausen Posted 13 October , 2012 Share Posted 13 October , 2012 Hello Aurel, There are two pics, two photograph's from Eddy's collection and these are the pic's you know. I'll send you a mail, still have your mailaddress. jef Still have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 13 October , 2012 Share Posted 13 October , 2012 Just a thought - Adolf Greiner died 19/10/17, so the Northumberland Fusiliers may have been buried in the same cemetery as Eddie's picture. Mike, the picture is on this old thread here. What else is out there von Smallhausen? Tantalisingly, Eddie also has a crop from an aerial on the Dutch forum, but it concentrates on the railway and is too far west to cover the area of the cemetery. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 I have just had a look again, and after Jef (Von Smallhausen) sent me some extra info, I think I have to change my mind a little bit. Von Smallhausen posted a sketch of the location taken from a 2010 Lichtervelde publication. (His posting # 8.) Roel (posting # 10) replied that this cemetery was not the German one, but the communal cemetery, where originally German soldiers were buried. I agreed. But not anymore. The map (sketch) shows a square area just a little north of the church (150 - 200 meters), marked with half a dozen little crosses. This is the communal cemetery (were before the summer of 1917) German men were buried too. But the later (from summer 1917 on) German cemetery is that black U-shaped marked. This one is about 450-500 meters north of the church. The photo I had in mind, that I had downloaded from Eddy Lambrecht ("Cnock")'s posting a while ago, and to which Phil gave a link, and which I am posting here again, in my opinion now is the German cemetery, not the communal cemetery. 1. The distance to the church look more like 400 meters than only 150 meters. (I know, pics can be misleading, because of a mild wide angle, yet ...) 2. Most of all : the grave is of Adolf Griener, who fell on 19 Oct. 1917. The Lichtervelde book also shows a second pic of a grave from Eddy's collection : Wilhelm Althaus. This man fell on 23 Oct. 1917. And as the German cemetery was begun on 31 July 1917 (and as men who fell on and after that date were no longer buried in the old communal cemetery, but in the new German cemeter) ... I can also add that the author of the Dutch article in the Lichtervelde 2010 publication sees the two pics as taken in the German cemetery. And he also adds that no other pics with a general view of the German cemetery have been found. (And maybe don't exist.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 This is the best I can do with a sketch map, but I'm fairly happy with it. I would still like to see a contemporary map, as there has obviously been some major redevelopment in the area. I assume that the pedestrian walkway and continuation onto F. Timmermanslaan, at one time was a straight road through to Hoogwielkesraat and formed a crossroads with Oude Bruggweg. What is the provenance of the sketch map? It shows the familiar semi-circular end to the friedhof, which I take it was based on fact. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhausen Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 Hello Phil, I think the sketch map was found in a Regimentsgeschichte. The words Lageplan , BHF ( = Bahnhof), Nach Thourhout are german, not dutch. Kind regards, Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 Thanks Jef, I think we're getting there. That adds credence to the sketch map. The track through the centre in Eddy's picture may actually be the fore-runner of F. Timmermanslaan. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 I think we have a bingo too. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhausen Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 What else is out there von Smallhausen?.......... Phil, In your post of yesterday you spoke about Northumberland Fusiliers Attached is a list of British casualties who were buried in this cemetery. Among them are three NF. They all were reburied in 1928 in Harlebeke New British cemetery . kind regards, Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 Thanks once again Jef. That matches with Mike's mention of three Northumberland Fusiliers buried side-by-side at Harlebeke (post #1) Roel, I find it difficult when doing these overlays to avoid distorting the map to suit preconceptions, but hopefully I've got it right. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhausen Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 Yes Phil, These are the graves ( Pic made by my friend F. Vannieuwenhuyse) Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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