judecowie@mac.com Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Hi All In St John's Church in Stamford is the attached plaque - one of the men listed is "SAD: F. Burton" - I do not know what this rank refers to.....can anyone help. Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 I suspect this means "Shot at dawn", ie executed. The community still wanted him remembered. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 No F Burton Shot at Dawn but there was a R Burton of 6th South Lancs Commemorated on the Basra Memorial for the missing. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judecowie@mac.com Posted 7 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Thanks Guys If not Shot at Dawn - what else could SAD refer to.......? Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Localised abbreviation for "Sadler", or similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 I don't suppose there is any date attached to the plaque ? There is no F. Burton in the CGWC for ww1 deaths under the Saddler denomination. Haven't looked at ww2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judecowie@mac.com Posted 8 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Hi Guys There are no dates on the plaque - but is a WW1 Memorial - I too cannot find any reference to an F Burton - I have tried unsuccessfully to download a photo of the plaque - but I can email if required - my email address is judecowie@mac.com - unusual I guess........ Thanks for your time and interest. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Hi John it is perhaps not the best of ideas to put your e-mail address up on open forum,john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judecowie@mac.com Posted 8 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2012 You are right - but I am finding adding photo's etc quite frustrating to the forum - will keep persevering ..... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judecowie@mac.com Posted 8 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Hi All I hope this is readable? - it is a section of the plaque in Stamford St Johns Church showing SAD: F. Burton - could this mean Shot at Dawn or something else? Thanks again for your help John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 As all the prefixes are ranks, I would expect that SAD was a rank as well. If the meaning was 'shot at dawn' surely it would come after his name. Can't think for the moment what it could mean however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 I'd go with the suggestion of Saddler. Remember that these memorials were local affairs, so correct service abbreviations are not necessarily going to be used, and (in some cases) the people resonsible might not even know what the real rank was. A classic (not rank, but regiment) for me is a WW2 chap locally who was in the Reconnaissance Corps. Normally abbreviated to Recce, on our church it is abbreviated as R.E.C.C.E. Hmmm ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 I would also go along with Saddler. The relative sizing of the letters indicates that it is not a set of three separate intitials. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 The use of "SAD" an an abbreviation to refer to executed men is a recent affectation anyway, isn't it ? Not in use at the time, nor when the memorials were being built. I had an interest in the subject since reading Moore's book "Thin Yellow Line" in 1974, continuing over the years with Babington's book, then Putkowski's and then, finally, "Blindfold and Alone". In 38 years of following the subject, I don't think I had ever seen "SAD" used in this context until I saw it being used when I joined this forum a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aradgick Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Approaching this from a different angle, I have looked in the 1911 census for possible candidates in the Stamford area. There are only two - Frederick, a 28 year old bootmaker and Charles Alfred, aged 13 and still at school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 A bootmaker wouldf know how to use leather, so saddler might be a logical appointment - although I know the Army doesn't always put men into obvious trades. I also share Stoppage Drill's view that "SAD" for "Shot at dawn" is a much more modern coinage. 1980s or later, I think. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judecowie@mac.com Posted 9 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Thanks again guys for your interest and your comments - going back to when the plaque was commissioned in the 1920's - Shot at Dawn would not have been an appropriate abbreviation - fair point that it should have been entered after his name, this makes sense - with the number of Cavalry regiments in WW1 someone would have been needed to make the associated accoutrements that goes with them - but Saddler? what other ranks would be attached to the Cavalry in this capacity? Thanks again John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Farrier for one, and not just cavalry. Gunners, Sappers and Service Corps all had large numbers of horses, and infantry, too, to a smaller degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Quite right. Saddlers were on the standard establishment of cavalry regiments, field artillery brigades etc. One man in each cavalry regiment was appointed as saddletree-maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 In cavalry regiments the rank was Saddler Sergeant. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Shg. Smth. is one I have seen on a Yeomanry memorial - presumably Shoeing Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 My three penny-worth. As with many ranks, early in the war the trade was often used to show specific skills that the soldier had. Saddler was one of these. So on 1914 and 1914/5 stars the use of Sadler can be found although abbreviated to SDLR. Also Wheeler Serjeant, Fitter Corporal, Farrier Serjeant, Shoe Smith, etc. I have yet to find any BWM or victory medals with these ranks. Just whizzing through my R.F.A. 1914/5 stars I can find :- 82865 SDLR. S.T. CHATER. R.F.A. 741 SD.S.SJT. A.P. O'CONNOR. R.F.A. L-18584 SD:SJT. W.T. BUNCE. R.F.A. So I am certain that the SAD. on the memorial relates to Sadler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 If you try "saddler" in TNA search box, you will see that the ranks ranged from just "Saddler" through "cpl saddler" and on up. I think you need to step back and see who is recorded on the board and why they are there. If you take an unusual on your board name like "A E Beall" the only man on CWGC is from Yorks and seems nothing to do with Lincs. So are they all dead ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 I would say Sadler also. It was an appointment made to a rank. I posted the 1914 King's Regs. ranks and appointments on this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176097&st=50 near the end. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 However there was a 164499 Sapper F.J. Burton, 35th Army Troop Coy, R.Engineers who died on the 2nd November 1918 and is buried at Jerusalem Cemetery. He was the husband of Louisa of Beetley, East Dereham, Norfolk. This rank could easily be mis-identified as 'SAD' from 'SAP'. There again I could just as easily be barking up the wrong tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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