Gunner from South Midland (Warwickshire) Heavy Battery RGA

[philster]

Hello experts,

I have recently been doing some amateur research into the ww1 career of my grandfather William Bell, who I found out was a Gunner with the RGA. All I have is his MIC, medals in their original cardboard mail box and photo of him in uniform near the end of the war.

On using the info on this forumn I'm assuming he was with the South Midland (Warwickshire) Heavy Battery RGA - (TF). I know from family history that he was living around the Saltley area of Bham at the time and his father and himself were working at the Carriage works.

From his regiment number, 314597, I'm assuming he was with this RGA battery as per this post (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42338entry352685) 314001-315000 WARWICKSHIRE HVY BY, RGA/ S MIDLAND DIV

When he left the RGA and returned home, he joined the police and all I have got from that personnel record is that he was in the RGA 4.25 years. So, I'm assuming he joined the TF in the first quarter of 1915 and did not get posted overseas until 1916 and I know he joined the police mid 1919.

I've no idea what he did as a gunner, there are no additional badges on his uniform to suggest he performed a specialist role, so any info on what he may have done as part of a team on a heavy battery would be great.

On his two medals, (surpisingly to me), it says 314597 Gnr William Bell, R.A. NOT R.G.A - is this usual?

On his photo I see that he has 2 overseas chevrons and a wound stripe. Please does anyone know if it might be possible for me to find a list of details for those given a wound stripe? I was told he was injured by shrapnel.

He must have been about 21 when he went overseas, I'm assuming he spent nearly a year being trained over here before going. One thing that isn't clear to me is when he was sent to France, would he have joined the rest of the battery in groups with others? I've found others with similar service numbers (some of who were killed) and I'm wondering if it's a safe assumption to presume my grandfather was at the same location with some of these soldiers?

Any info telling me I'm right or wrong on these assumptions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Phil

[ss002d6252]

From his regiment number, 314597, I'm assuming he was with this RGA battery as per this post (http://1914-1918.inv...38) 314001-315000 WARWICKSHIRE HVY BY, RGA/ S MIDLAND DIV

The number would have been allocated in Feb 1917 or so he may have been in a different unit prior to this.

From looking at 'Soldiers Died Great War' a large number of men who were killed with the battery seem to have had prior service with other units first.

One thing that isn't clear to me is when he was sent to France, would he have joined the rest of the battery in groups with others? I've found others with similar service numbers (some of who were killed) and I'm wondering if it's a safe assumption to presume my grandfather was at the same location with some of these soldiers?

You can be pretty certain he was sent across with a group of men but you can't tell which men just from service numbers - once they were put in the depot some men may have been sent off at the earliest opportunity whilst others were retained for extra training or due to illness.

[philster]

From his regiment number, 314597, I'm assuming he was with this RGA battery as per this post (http://1914-1918.inv...38) 314001-315000 WARWICKSHIRE HVY BY, RGA/ S MIDLAND DIV

The number would have been allocated in Feb 1917 or so he may have been in a different unit prior to this.

From looking at 'Soldiers Died Great War' a large number of men who were killed with the battery seem to have had prior service with other units first.

One thing that isn't clear to me is when he was sent to France, would he have joined the rest of the battery in groups with others? I've found others with similar service numbers (some of who were killed) and I'm wondering if it's a safe assumption to presume my grandfather was at the same location with some of these soldiers?

You can be pretty certain he was sent across with a group of men but you can't tell which men just from service numbers - once they were put in the depot some men may have been sent off at the earliest opportunity whilst others were retained for extra training or due to illness.

Many thanks for that. His MIC (attached) doesn't mention any prior unit, but even so, could he have been in a different unit before?

Thanks,

Phil

[ss002d6252]

Many thanks for that. His MIC (attached) doesn't mention any prior unit, but even so, could he have been in a different unit before?

Its possible, the MIC would only show units he served overseas with , it wouldn't show any for home sevice. He appears to have been with the battery when 6 digit numbers were handed out but before that you can't tell.

The number suggests he went to France no earlier than about Feb 1917 but as he has one of the higher numbers in the allocated sequence it may have been a good bit later.

[E Wilcock]

A related query has just arrived via my website. I came across this thread in search of answers. And am still mystified.

How and who and when did men transfer from a Howitzer Brigade of the RFA to the RGA?

My gunner Charles Frederick Field had previous service on the Western Front. Gunner Field served in the 4th Coventry battery of the 4th South Midland brigade of the RFA (TA) and went out to France with the Brigade in March 1915. The medal card shows that along with his original "short" service number 378, he later had a long service number of 314633 in the RGA ( Royal Garrison Artillery.)

24. Jan 1917.

I looked for any surviving service or pension records for men with numbers close to his in the sequence. I have not done this at length but at random was one of them transferred to 124 heavy brigade in the field and was allotted his long number number 314581 on 24 Jan 1917.

Does anyone have any ideas? My husband points out that heavy artillery was expanding at this time but we know nothing about the Warwickshire Heavy battery or Heavy brigade, nor were they the same thing?

Thanks for any help with this

Edited 15 April , 2013 by E Wilcock

[Chris_Baker]

It would be worth tracking down a book titled "Before the echoes die away: the story of a Warwickshire Territorial Gunner Regiment 1892-1969" by N. D. G. James. It is not too hard to find a second hand purchase, and is in a number of libraries. It will not answer your detailed queries about individual soldiers (although many are mentioned) but it gives some good and reliable background about the Warwickshire RFA and the Heavy Battery RGA.

[philster]

Thank you Chris, it would be worth me taking a look at that book.

Regarding the other RFA to RGA point, not sure if this might be relevant but I found the following reference

"... became a component of The South Midland (Warwickshire) Heavy Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery. The headquarters of this unit, together with half of its strength, were recruited from workers at the Metropolitan Works at Saltley in Birmingham, which was also owned by Dudley Docker. The remainder of the battery and its ammunition column were based in Wednesbury (R. Westlake, The Territorial Force 1914 (Newport:Ray Westlake Military Books, 1988), p. 27)"

This was quite useful to me since I'm pretty certain my gf would have worked there at the time - along with his father.

I've also found that with the TF numbers - due to the renumbering (in Jan 1917) and unlike the regulars, it's not easy to get info from the SWB entries in order to get a reasonable range for enlistment. I looked at quite a few with the 314*** range but there is a variation because some soldiers were from other batteries who then joined the S Midland Heavy Battery, etc.

Phil

[kevinrowlinson]

A related query has just arrived via my website. I came across this thread in search of answers. And am still mystified.

How and who and when did men transfer from a Howitzer Brigade of the RFA to the RGA?

My gunner Charles Frederick Field had previous service on the Western Front. Gunner Field served in the 4th Coventry battery of the 4th South Midland brigade of the RFA (TA) and went out to France with the Brigade in March 1915. The medal card shows that along with his original "short" service number 378, he later had a long service number of 314633 in the RGA ( Royal Garrison Artillery.)

24. Jan 1917.

I looked for any surviving service or pension records for men with numbers close to his in the sequence. I have not done this at length but at random was one of them transferred to 124 heavy brigade in the field and was allotted his long number number 314581 on 24 Jan 1917.

Does anyone have any ideas? My husband points out that heavy artillery was expanding at this time but we know nothing about the Warwickshire Heavy battery or Heavy brigade, nor were they the same thing?

Thanks for any help with this

It wasn't unusual for RFA gunners to be transferred to the RGA. The records for men of the SM RFA I have seen most were transferred between Aug. to Nov. 1917 by which time they had already been given their RFA TF number. Obviously Gnr. Fields was transferred before that time but possibly was included in this batch of those transfers to be re-numbered. There renumbering and why can be thanked on ACI 151 of 1917.

After their transfer they may then have been sent to any battery, if they had not already been attached to a battery before the renumbering. Occasionally ones sees records for RFA men who were not transferred for months, if not years, later.

314581 was actually a RGA man and not a transfer and served with 124th Heavy Battery.

Kevin

[david todd]

hi all,i was researching a gunner in the rga david glassford 69321,his medal card on ancestry and marriage cert both said gunner rga,his medal card at kew said 115 seige battery rga,have you looked at kew.regards david

[E Wilcock]

I own the book Before the Echoes Die Away, a history of the Royal Field Artillery in Warwickshire. It has no index but I regret to say that I am unable to locate any explanation of the Warwickshire Heavy Battery in the Royal Garrison Artillery. I an not a First World War expert and it is easy to become confused by the use of the word "heavy" to describe the Howitzer batteries, two of which made up the 4th South Midland Brigade of the RFA. Their long service numbers are in the 840*** sequence.

But these long numbers starting 314*** are on medal cards showing RGA - Royal Garrison Artillery.

Gunner Charles Frederick Field acquired his first service number 378 in the Coventry Howitzer Battery of 4th South Midland Brigade - but never received and 840*** long number. His parents lived in Coventry and he later married in Coventry. There is no documentation to connect him to Birmingham.

[kevinrowlinson]

Quote, "It has no index but I regret to say that I am unable to locate any explanation of the Warwickshire Heavy Battery in the Royal Garrison Artillery. " and "it is easy to become confused by the use of the word "heavy" to describe the Howitzer batteries, two of which made up the 4th South Midland Brigade of the RFA."

You do seemed confused.

We are talking here of two different Corps in the same regiment. South Midland (Warwickshire) RGA TF had its headquarters at the start of the war at The Metropolitan Works, Saltley, Birmingham. The gunners from this TF association helped form the 1/1 Warwickshire Heavy Battery which went out to France on the 30th March 1915 and disembarked the next day. All the men who enlisted, and later mobilised, were numbered sequentially and its possible to roughly split the renumbering to which line they enlisted into: either 1/1, 2/1 or 3/1. The higher numbers around 314633 seems to have been assigned to the 3/1 Company. That does not mean they all enlisted later, although many did, but there would have been a few who were transferred or gunners who had been disembodied and later re-enlisted.

The term "heavy battery" is reserved for the RGA and should not be confused with the howitzers of the RFA.

As for "Fields" to say why or how he was transferred would be pure speculation, but at a wild guess I would suggest he was hospitalised and struck off the strength of his brigade, when better was posted to the 48th SM Base Depot and then posted to a RGA unit (and given his numbering probably the 1/1 Warwickshire HB).

Kevin

[KONDOA]

Given that the TF numbers were issued chronologically, the higher numbers are indicative of later enlistment. From late 1914, these TF batteries were required to raise 1st Depot Sections, so one often sees a gap in the recruiitment dates as the ACI was implemented, later a 2nd Depot section was instructed by ACI , so many batteries had a surplus of troops to supplement the battery in the field. This is probably why the MIC shows the post 1917 number as he was not mobilised from the battery Depot intil 1917 as has been stated earlier.

With respect to Field, the MIC shows a post 1917 number, how do you know he was with the 4th Coventry Battery and went to France in March 1915, is this also shown? (I have not downloaded it). Kevins explanation is logical unless he was disembodied.

Roop

[philster]

Given that the TF numbers were issued chronologically, the higher numbers are indicative of later enlistment.

From what I've seen this isn't always the case - not with The South Midland (Warwickshire) TF Heavy Battery - I've looked at quite a few numbers from this battery in the 314*** range from the SWB list. The reason is that there were men being transferred into this Battery from others when the TF numbering was taking place - it looks like these men were being given new TF numbers alongside other men who may have only recently enlisted. E.g. 314930 enlisted on 29/04/1915 but 314781 enlisted on 31/05/1915 and 314868 enlisted on 09/09/1912 (i.e. this man had served with a previous battery before).

Hope this helps - or maybe I'm confused?

Phil

[kevinrowlinson]

From what I've seen this isn't always the case - not with The South Midland (Warwickshire) TF Heavy Battery - I've looked at quite a few numbers from this battery in the 314*** range from the SWB list. The reason is that there were men being transferred into this Battery from others when the TF numbering was taking place - it looks like these men were being given new TF numbers alongside other men who may have only recently enlisted. E.g. 314930 enlisted on 29/04/1915 but 314781 enlisted on 31/05/1915 and 314868 enlisted on 09/09/1912 (i.e. this man had served with a previous battery before).

Hope this helps - or maybe I'm confused?

Phil

I think I said something similar in post 11. "That does not mean they all enlisted later, although many did, but there would have been a few who were transferred or gunners who had been disembodied and later re-enlisted." I suppose one could say that the higher the number the more chance that that is the case. The 7/8/900th is certainly getting high for locally enlisted men given that many would have already enlisted or were being conscripted or mobilised. There are also the odd batch who were transferred from the Sth. Midland (Warwickshire) TF to the "regulars" before 1917, and who were re-numbered with a "regular" number and therefore never got a 6 digit number. Two batches stick out with one going to the 31st Heavy Battery and another going to 121st Heavy Battery.

Kevin

[Guest Brianew]

Hello,

My father bombardier Thomas Williams (314059) was a member of 1/1 Warwickshire Heavy Battery. He was living in Wednesbury at the out break of WWI and was at Woolwich Garrison early part of 1915 prior to moving to France in Mar 1915. I know his battery was in the Ypres area initially and on the Somme sometime later. However, in Oct 1917 the battery moved to Italy (Assiago) as part of 47 Division subsequently commanded by General the Earl of Cavan. In the last weeks of the war, i.e. 24th October - 3rd November 1918 he was very much involved in the final push that overwhelmed the Austrian/German forces. He was awarded the Medal Militaire (Bronze) by the Italians and was also Mention in Despatches (of which I have both documents and the medal). When I look at the service numbers, and the fact that Bdr Bell survived the war, I cannot help but assume that they must have served together/know each other.

My father died in 1954 and up until that time he regularly attended the Battery's Annual dinner.

Do you, or anyone who may read this, know if the Battery's War diaries still exist?

Regards

Brianew

[ororkep]

Welcome Brian,

while there survives a Warwick WD it only covers events prior to Italy, your best bet is the Brigade WD held at Kew that they came under in Italy, which was 24 Brigade. The internal NA reference for the 24 Brigade WD covering the Italian theatre is:WO95/4205. The 1/1 Warwick HB WD ref is WO95/302

Rgds

Paul

P.S. Was Thomas a good sprinter?

[Guest Brianew]

Paul,

many thanks! most useful I will attempt to gain access.

I reckon he must have been a good sprinter; from what I have learned about Assiago in the past few years, he would have needed to be.

Regards

Brian

[philster]

Hello Brian,

Many thanks for sharing the info about your father. I'm fairly certain that my grandfather had been in Italy during WW1 as well. My father (his son-in-law) used to tell me that.

If you manage to get WO95/302 and do find anything I'd really like to know. I've had a break from looking into the next step of checking diaries and newspapers.

Regards,

Phil