Who did grandfather search with

[LMDown]

I am new to this forum and have turned to it in desperation in my search for information on my husband's grandfather. Have been on several battlefield holidays and it is frustrating not having a clue where he might have served. The most glaring difficulty is his name: Christopher George Smith.

What I know about him:

· Date of birth: 29 May 1886 in Cardiff, parents Robert and Ann Smith

· In 1901 he is a Dock Labourer

· In 1911 he a Railway Company’s Labourer

· In 1913 when he got married he was a Boiler Coverer

· In Jan 1914 he is a General Labourer

· In April 1915 he is a Private Royal Horse Artillery (Dock Labourer) – information supplied by his wife on birth certificate

· In 1919 he is again a General Labourer

· I have a large framed photograph of him sitting on a horse wearing what appears to be a RHA dress uniform – I did read somewhere that someone else said that she had discovered that her ancestor had been loaned a uniform for advertising purposes so wonder now if he genuinely owned this uniform

· I have a picture of him wearing a sort of uniform which I now understand to be a hospital uniform and you can see his cap badge which is RFA/RHA

· Also have a photo of him in later life wearing two badges – Victory and the 1914 star. I take it to be the 1914 star as there is a bar across the ribbon. The photo is not clear enough for me to see any more by looking through a magnifying glass. Why he hasn’t got the British War medal I have no idea.

· My husband recalls stories of him sleeping with the horses to keep warm

What I have done:

Contacted members of family to see if anybody knows what happened to his medals – nobody know or, in some cases, cares!

Looked for service record but his must have been in the burned records as can find no trace

Looked at medal cards at Christopher G, C.G, Christopher and George to see if I can find anybody who fit with the medals he is wearing and was in RFA/RHA – I can’t swear to having looked at every single combination but have done my best and the only one I could come up with which was RHA and had 1914 star was the 3^rd Brigade RHA but as that appeared to be stationed in Ireland I am finding it hard to believe that somebody from Cardiff would have joined a unit so quickly when 3^rd Brigade went off to war almost immediately.

Asked if he was on absent voters list but they no longer exist for Cardiff

My thoughts:

· I don’t think he could have been in the Territorials as he would have had a Territorial badge, like my own grandfather, instead of the 1914 star

· Could he somehow between all the known dates have been in the army and been on reserve and therefore called up and is it at all possible that he could have somehow joined the 3^rd Brigade RHA in August 1914?

After that I am really, really stumped and wondered if anybody out there has any thoughts on the matter or suggestions as to any sources I may not have considered. Otherwise, I fear I am facing a dead end here!

[ss002d6252]

I have a picture of him wearing a sort of uniform which I now understand to be a hospital uniform and you can see his cap badge which is RFA/RHA

Also have a photo of him in later life wearing two badges – Victory and the 1914 star. I take it to be the 1914 star as there is a bar across the ribbon.

Can you post these pictures ?

take it to be the 1914 star as there is a bar across the ribbon.

if its is a 1914 star then it would be a Mons Clasp which would support a man who who went across in or shortly after August 1914.

[Ellen Spence]

There is a Christopher Smith (no middle initial) who served in the Royal Fusiliers, the RHA, the Labour Corps and the RFA. He has the 1915 Star, embarking on 1st June 1915.

Worth a look?

[KevinBattle]

You have known dates in his life, but obviously, a lot could happen between some of them!

In 1901 he was a dock labourer at just 15, the Boer War is still ongoing so he could have enlisted for 12 years soon after, done 3 or 4 years "With the Colours" and then served the rest as a Territorial, only needing to attend an Annual Camp. When war breaks out, he is then one of the first recalled and as a trained soldier is amongst the first to go.

None of that conflicts with your timeline (except to ensure he is in Civvie Street as a railway labourer in 1911 Census, 1913 Marriage and Jan 1914!

When his wife reports his occupation on the Birth Certificate, I think she is giving BOTH occupation, in civilian life a dock labourer and in Army service a Private (Gunner?) in RHA.

As this is only 6 or so months after war declared, I don't think he would have time to have served elsewhere, wounded or transferred and turn up in RHA, so my guess is RHA service, although the Ellsbells chap is obviously a contender!

It would help if you could read the rules on posting photos (or a kind Pal point them out!) so we could have a look ourselves at the uniform and medals (which wouldn't have been readily available much before the end of the War. The style of the uniform not only helps identify Arm of Service but can in some cases narrow it down to pre, post or war time.

EDIT: Just seen his photo in Webb Family Tree. You must be so proud of him!

From the childrns birth records George was early 1915 and none until Evan in 1919, supporting him being in the Army for those years in between!

[MickLeeds]

There is a medal index card for a Christopher G Smith (38422) Driver, 3rd Brigade, Royal Horse Artillery.

Landed in France, 15th August 1914.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D5212569

Mick.

[KevinBattle]

OP says:-

the only one I could come up with which was RHA and had 1914 star was the 3^rd Brigade RHA but as that appeared to be stationed in Ireland I am finding it hard to believe that somebody from Cardiff would have joined a unit so quickly when 3^rd Brigade went off to war almost immediately.

but I agree he looks the most likely, if recalled as a Reservist (sorry, I said Territorial earlier) he'd be in with the early draft of the Battery or Brigade....

Christopher was a fairly unusual name (even when combined with Smith!) and the initial fits.

Has the 1914 Star and Medal Card shows C&R (Clasp and Rose) issued, in 1933! He'd qualify obviously for British War and Victory medals too.

Just a shame that we can't be certain unless a long lost piece of his papers, medals or whatever turns up in the family!

The "photo in later life wearing two badges" (medals! please !!) would have then to date as post 1933.

If that is so, then (subject to no shock discovery if uniform photo turns up!) this is the best candidate to be Last Man Down's GGF-in L

One question for the Service Number specialists: There is a Driver Christopher Smith W/3292. Would the "W" perhaps indicate "Wales"?

[ss002d6252]

Welsh RFA apparently - http://www.1914-1918.net/prefixes.html

[LMDown]

Well, I'm amazed at the quick response to my plea but first of all apologies for calling the medals 'badges' - it was unintentional - a mental slip up, as it were! I'll try to upload photos but not being too technically minded I have tried to load all three at once but it seems there must be a way to do it that escapes me so will load one at a time. Please bear with me and thanks once again. It's interesting to see the comment about W = Wales, certainly worth a look. the 3rd Brigade RHA still seems a strong contender but it's just the fact of joining this unit so early in the war when they left for France from Ireland and he was in Cardiff. Did soldiers join their units from other places?

[LMDown]

Second photo attached, I hope.

[ss002d6252]

the 3rd Brigade RHA still seems a strong contender but it's just the fact of joining this unit so early in the war when they left for France from Ireland and he was in Cardiff. Did soldiers join their units from other places?

Reservists would be called back to pre-determined locations then dispatched from there to catch up with relevant unit- there are cases I've heard of men coming back from abroad to join their units.

[KevinBattle]

Well the uniform doesn't shout that it's NOT RHA, see this video of the Kings Troop firing ceremonial salute, looks very similar....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2012/feb/06/queen-diamond-jubilee-video

The photo wearing his medals is presumably some occasion after 1933, IF he's 38422, as it definitely is the 1914 Star and Clasp, together with the Victory medal (the British War medal had a broad centre orange stripe with a white band either side and dark blue edges)

He SHOULD have had that too, but it did have a high silver content and when times were hard, either sell the medal or kids go hungry....

They just made the golden anniversary, was that when the photo was taken?

The W/3292 had a serious wound or illness that entitled him to a Silver War Badge, so I'd think that would be known in the family.

My "guess" is that 38422 is a better match on the evidence available (hedging his bet!)

[ss002d6252]

W/3292 is too old be the right man, he was born in 1882.

[KevinBattle]

Thanks for that '6252, rules him out..... but does anything confirm 38422 as "our" man??

Anyone know if Service Number can be tied to an enlistment date?

[ss002d6252]

The number seems to have been allocated in November 1914

26107 11 Sep 1914

30847 10 Nov 1914

32499 08 Jan 1904 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

35439 20 Aug 1904 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

38072 10 Jul 1905 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

39966 2 Nov 1905 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

41553 18 Jan 1906 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

43993 17 Jul 1907 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

45840 16 Nov 1914

It seems time-expired men were given new numbers so there's no way of differentiating them by number alone.

[LMDown]

All this information has been very helpful. Sometimes you get stuck and then you stop seeing the obvious because you have looked at it so often. I have now compared the photo of him in uniform and the one in hospital uniform (I've cropped it now so hope it will upload - he is the one sitting down) and my gut feeling is that the one on the horse was probably taken some years before the war as if it was taken in 1914 then the difference in age between the two photos would be a max of 4 and I know men will have aged terribly because of their experiences but I think he looks older in the later photo. In 1914 he would have been 28 and I don't think he looks that old so it seems to bear out the possibility that some time between 1901 and 1911 he had been in the regular army and therefore at the outbreak of war he was a reservist and it just so happened possibly that his regiment was based in Ireland at that time.

[ss002d6252]

I've add a few more numbers to my last post.

Having looked a bit deeper in to the numbers the numbers around 38422 'appear' to have been given to men who had re-enlisted and in date order -it 'could' suggest that the numbers give a date sequence for the original enlistment of Aug 1904 and Nov 1905.

[LMDown]

The information about the numbers is very interesting and he would have been around 18/19 at the time which fits in better, to my mind, with the age of the man in dress uniform. Thank you so much for that little nugget of information - something I would never have found out on my own.

[ss002d6252]

I can narrow it slightly further:

38072 10 Jul 1905 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

39966 2 Nov 1905 (presumably re-enlisted Nov 1914)

[KevinBattle]

That's excellent work 6252 as it allows him to have enlisted in 1905 for say 4 years "With the Colours" and 8 years in the Reserve, so "out" by 1910 and recalled in 1914 with 2 or 3 years still to serve before being "time expired" and by which time conscription would mean he's in for the duration of the War...

Certainly looks a fine soldier in his uniform, much more worldly wise (and a bit relieved to still be alive by his expression).

Looks as if his left foot is in some soft shoe or slipper, compared to the boot on his right foot, certainly a leg injury to need a stick.

Is there any family history of such a wounding? Maybe a horse trod on it!

One other point, in the "anniversary" photo, he looks to be wearing a regimental tie..... any clue there?

[LMDown]

My goodness, you are sharp-eyed - never noticed the difference in shoe wear! As far as I am aware, all we know is that he was wounded and at some stage it is believed he was also gassed, as so many were. As to the tie, I am not sure about that - pity the photo is not in colour, it might have been easier to tell. Will ask family if anybody knows but as none have been particularly forthcoming so far I don't hold out much hope there.

As for the dates provided by 6252 that's fantastic, my only reservation being that the 3rd Brigade RHA Smith seems to have engaged on 15 September 1914 so will have to look again at that.

Incidentally, I see that in addition to the two batteries, D & E, based at Newbridge in Ireland, there is a J Battery based in Aldershot. Am I reading this correctly as J Battery also being part of 3rd Brigade RHA? I am still have problems in reconciling why a Welsh man would have joined an Irish unit as he didn't have any Irish connections.

[ss002d6252]

Being sent to another brigade isn't a real worry. They were shipping units off add fast as they could fill them so men would be sent to any brigade requiring experienced men to being them to strength.

[KevinBattle]

It's just a question of looking at all possible clues.

I'd like a uniform expert to hove into view for possible useful comments on the young soldier to see if the uniform, sword etc can provide information as to possible date

Similarly is the tie a regimental one or just a convenient civilain tie.

I'd like to think that if he was proud enough to wear his medals, then a tie to match would be his choice....

Would that possibly be silver anniversary, about 1938?

He's still got dark hair so looks possible, even though a striped shirt was a bit "stylish" then, next "milestone" anniversary is usually ruby which makes it 1953 ish... shirt more likely but????

In his hospital blues, can it be confirmed as an RHA cap badge on his knee? I assume that's a blemish on the photo and not a scar/plaster on his chin?

No scar shows up on his later photo's.

I think I've sucked it dry on my limited knowledge, you'd need the real hotshots such as '6252 to take it further.... Good luck!

[LMDown]

Many thanks to all who have contributed to the knowledge so far. It's given me some thought and certainly some very useful additional information/pointers. I am not sure of the actual occasion of the later photo, it certainly wasn't Golden Anniversary as I have a photo of that occasion. Elvira still has dark hair (not so much dyeing of hair if those days!) and by my calculation she would have been 53 by the time of the Silver Wedding in 1938 but maybe when he got his clasp in 1933 they had a photo done specially. There is nothing written on the back of the photo to indicate a date. Thanks also for the suggestion re the missing medal - times were hard in the 1920s for people like Christopher working on the docks or getting any kind of work, so with 4 mouths to feed he may very well have sold the medal. It seems far more likely than him having lost it.

BTW the Webb family site on Ancestry is the husband of my husband's cousin who has also been researching but the original photos are ours as my husband is descended from the eldest child of Christopher and Elvira. They have even less knowledge than we do unfortunately.

My husband has just taken the back off the photo on the horse to see if anything had been written on that but sadly it has been stuck onto plyboard and there is no way of getting it off that without damaging the photo and may in any case prove a waste of exercise.

I want to go and look at the War Diaries and so, on the basis that for lack of any further proof which is probably well nigh impossible to obtain, but with your help I feel that the average of probability possibly points to this being our man, I guess it will be best to look at all three batteries of the 3rd Brigade RHA.

[old joe]

It looks like he has the BWM ribbon on the Victory Medal in the 'anniversary' photo.

[LMDown]

That's interesting. Will have to get out the ribbons from my paternal grandfather's medals and compare. I never thought of looking at that! Perhaps he did it to show in some way that he had actually had the other medal.