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Remembered Today:

57th Battalion MGC


impala_ood

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I find I have the photo of Hope in the KRRC Polo team winners of Inniskilling cup in Cairo. ...as a Lt ... . I will try and scan ... next week. Hard to tell if the same man..

Annoyingly.. no group photo of all officers in the chronicle that year

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A hunt through the 3rd and 4th editions of A Brief History of the KRRC likewise fails to show up any KRRC battalion involvement in the relevant IGSM campaigns.

1/KRRC was not in India 1902-1914.

2/KRRC was in various places in India 1901-1910.

3/KRRC was in India from Nov 1910.

4/KRRC was in India from 1909.

Both 3rd and 4th took part in the Delhi Coronation Durbar in 1911, but Hope's ribbon is definitely not the Delhi Durbar nor the Coronation medal.

Of course, we already know Hope was extra-regimentally employed, so the movements of the battalions doesn't really tell us much.

Cheers,

Mark

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I find I have the photo of Hope in the KRRC Polo team winners of Inniskilling cup in Cairo. ...as a Lt ... . I will try and scan ... next week. Hard to tell if the same man..

Annoyingly.. no group photo of all officers in the chronicle that year

What year was that Battiscombe?

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I've also gone through the KRRC Chronicle for 1917, 1918 and 1919.

GFR Hope is not listed in the Nominal Roll of officers served in 11/KRRC in 1917. I couldn't find any mention of him at all in the 1917 Chronicle. Ditto for 1919 Chronicle.

He is not mentioned in the battalion war records in the 1918 Chronicle, but is listed as Temp Lt.Col., DSO, receiving a Mentioned In Dispatches dated 27 Dec 1918.

From this I would infer that Hope never actually rejoined the KRRC after his wounding and repatriation in 1916. He probably spent time in one of the KRRC reserve battalions in the UK (5th or 6th battalions most likely) after leaving hospital, and but was transferred or seconded to the MGC when the time came to go back to theatre.

I've had a look through the 5/KRRC and 6/KRRC records but failed to find any mention of Hope.

There might be mention of his transfer/secondment in the 11/KRRC war diary, particluarly as he was a former battalion CO, but unfortunately I do not have access to the 11/KRRC war diary :-(

Cheers,

Mark

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If Capt. Hope was seconded outside of the KRRC, it's going to be very difficult to track him through KRRC records! We'd have to get hold of the medal rolls as a start.

Certainly Rawalpindi would be appropriate for involvement in NWF actions.

Cheers,

Mark

I think IGSM rolls can now be freely downloaded from The National Archives' website under their Digital Microfilm programme. Can't remember the series reference off the top of my head though. They are simply digitised versions of the previous microfilm of the rolls, they haven't been indexed so Mk I eyeball still needed to find your man

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There seem's to be an element of mystery around our Mr Hope that just refuses to go away... even the archivist at the Rifles museum said he was surprised at the lack of mention of JFR Hope in the chronicles. I will take a look at the National archives website and try and find the IGSM rolls mentioned. Thank you all for your continued input.

Rich

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Polo team picture in Cairo in KRRC Chronicle 1909, facing p.115 .. but in fact checking the text the winning team (of 2) may have been the Saunders, Kennedy, Porter and Martin - note Hope, Lees, Abadie and Willan as the image lacks names.. it mentions the same players were with the Bn the year before .. i don't know if the 1908 chronicle has any photos..

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I think IGSM rolls can now be freely downloaded from The National Archives' website under their Digital Microfilm programme. Can't remember the series reference off the top of my head though. They are simply digitised versions of the previous microfilm of the rolls, they haven't been indexed so Mk I eyeball still needed to find your man

I've downloaded the IGSM 1908 NWF clasp roll and the 1911-12 Abor clasp roll.

Free to download, but 180MB!!!

It has 418 pages. I've completed one pass through with Mk I Eyeball without spotting a GFR Hope, but many pages were very faint and several were in a poor hand, so there's a fair chance my Mark I Eyeball may have missed him!

Cheers,

Mark

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Hello all

Couple of attachments which might be ineresting

Firstly, I received two photos from the Rifles museum. Not quite the close up's I was hoping for, but the subjects are clearly named. Quite a few moustaches on show, and Hope is almost 10 years younger than in my photo, but zooming in on my pc, lining up an early image as provided by the rifles, my photo, and the admittedly fairly distant shot of the huntsmen on horseback, I'm 99.9% certain it is him. I'll let you draw your own conclusions but I'll be interested to hear what you think.

Secondly, I previously mentioned Arthur had done some digging on army lists, I've now attached what he sent me.

Ian - thank you for making a start on the IGSM roles, I really do appreciate your enthusiasm and help.

Oh, and thirdly I received my copy of the 57th Bn War diary on disc today. Only had a chance to skim read the first couple of pages - absolutely fascinating! I know it's probably old hat to your more experienced guys but it's the first time I have seen a historic document like this, with the added interest that it relates to someone in my family. I would go so far as to say it feels an honour to read it even on disc, and within the first few lines feels very moving when you read "two casualties whilst being relieved from trenches, one dead (with their names and numbers)".

Rich

post-93034-0-42045500-1349900591_thumb.j

post-93034-0-23368700-1349900603_thumb.j

post-93034-0-74265100-1349900629_thumb.j

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57 Battalion was formed from 170, 171, 172 and 173 Companies, all formed at Grantham in March 1917. The Company insignia were crossed machine guns in black on coloured rectangles: 170 red, 171 light green, 172 yellow and 173 dark green, the first three matching the Brigade colour. Judging from the tones in the black and white picture I would go for 171 or 173 Company. Battalion insignia were issued in June 1918 and were basically the Divisional insignia so I would date the picture as late 1917/ early 1918

Lt. Col. Hope's biography in the DSO book shows him as commissioned in October 1902, no mention of IGSM, 4 times MID and 3 times wounded. Hope was appointed to command the reformed 1 Battalion MGC in 1919 and commanded them in Ireland. He was nearly killed in an ambush in January 1921. His CBE was awarded for services in Ireland and he was the very last CO of a MGC unit.

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Lt. Col. Hope's biography in the DSO book shows him as commissioned in October 1902, no mention of IGSM, 4 times MID and 3 times wounded.

Out of interest are Hope's other campaign medals mentioned?

Whatever, we'd still expect to have seen any IGSM in the group sold at Bosleys already cited.

Cheers,

Mark

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The DSO book was published in 1924 but presumably compiled earlier - his CBE is not mentioned - but no other medals are mentioned other than the DSO. I can't find him on the IGSM rolls or any foreign decoration that he was given permission to wear. BTW, the 'second' ribbon looks very much like a blemish on the photograph, at least on the posted scan?????

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57 Battalion was formed from 170, 171, 172 and 173 Companies, all formed at Grantham in March 1917. The Company insignia were crossed machine guns in black on coloured rectangles: 170 red, 171 light green, 172 yellow and 173 dark green, the first three matching the Brigade colour. Judging from the tones in the black and white picture I would go for 171 or 173 Company. Battalion insignia were issued in June 1918 and were basically the Divisional insignia so I would date the picture as late 1917/ early 1918

Lt. Col. Hope's biography in the DSO book shows him as commissioned in October 1902, no mention of IGSM, 4 times MID and 3 times wounded. Hope was appointed to command the reformed 1 Battalion MGC in 1919 and commanded them in Ireland. He was nearly killed in an ambush in January 1921. His CBE was awarded for services in Ireland and he was the very last CO of a MGC unit.

BTW, the 'second' ribbon looks very much like a blemish on the photograph, at least on the posted scan?????

Gunner - thank you. The information re the company patches is invaluable and does seem to tie in with what I thought I could just about discern in my photo (crossed machine guns on a square shoulder patch). I guess this then ties in with the classic thread about colours in ortho film, which I'm still trying to get my head round.

Re the 'second' ribbon possibly looking like a blemish on the photograph, I'll take another look on the original with my magnifying glass but from memory it seems the rright size and hsape for a ribbon, and perfectly parralel with the first? I'll be happy if it is a blemish, if it means all the pieces fall in place a little neater.

I only have the war diary from 01 april 1918 onwards, when JFR Hope is signing the pages as Lt Col Commanding 57th Bn MGC, up to 31st Aug 1918. I might try and find out what Hope's position with the 57th (or it''s constituent companies) was between March 1917 and March 1918. If he was originally a company commander, and that ties in with the shoulder patches as described by Gunner, maybe that will fix our date and company?

Does everyone agree that the Rifles museum photos confirm this is Hope? Seems a pretty good match to me.

Showing my ignorance but just so I'm clear can someone explain the difference between acting and temporary?

Rich

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Excellent information and interesting sleuthing in this thread.

I don't think Hope was ever a member of a MG company. If you remember, Rich, he was an infantry battalion commander in KRRC. He joined No. 57 Battalion Machine Gun Corps as its commander on 5 February 1918, almost a full month ahead of its administrative formation on 1 March.

On the photographs I have two other subjective observations. First, looking at the posed MG photo one can imagine strain, stress and gravitas etched through experience of war on Hope's face when, in fact, the other photos show he was probably born looking like that! A salutory lesson in photo-interpretation. Second, I have a feeling that photograph is one of a series where each section or HQ company gets its photo with 'the boss' and 2IC. There are 16 ORs in rear (four gun teams) and the various NCOs which could be various section and sub-section leaders. The only problem I have with that is, if it is a 'complete' section it suggests a date later in the year as, on formation, the sections had full compliments of 7-8 junior officers and subalterns.

Cheers,

Simon

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Polo team picture in Cairo in KRRC Chronicle 1909, facing p.115 .. but in fact checking the text the winning team (of 2) may have been the Saunders, Kennedy, Porter and Martin - note Hope, Lees, Abadie and Willan as the image lacks names.. it mentions the same players were with the Bn the year before .. i don't know if the 1908 chronicle has any photos..

Does the 1909 Chronicle state Hope's battalion? Also Richard Abadie? (Abadie is the subject of Pal Liz in Eastbourne's research project, so any extra info most welcome! He was KiA as OC 2/KRRC at the Nieupoort Battle of the Dunes in July 1917)

Cheers,

Mark

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Hope transferred to the MGC on 27 December 1917 - London Gazette 13 April 1918 has him appointed to command a battalion from that date. He appears to have been a Chief Instructor prior to that - London Gazette 13 November 1917 has him appointed as such from 4 July 1917. He became a Brigadier General (replacing one who had been killed) on23 September 1918 and was replaced as CO of 57 Battalion by Lt. Col. B.H. Puckle DSO. I agree with Simon that this photo is the'boss' with some section (HQ is my bet) and probably early 1918. Note also that Hope has MGC cap and collars not KRRC so maybe put these up after his appointment in December 1917?

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I agree with Simon that this photo is the'boss' with some section (HQ is my bet) and probably early 1918.

Yes - that had been my first thought too.

I've seen a few of these unit + boss group photos.

Cheers,

Mark

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Excellent information and interesting sleuthing in this thread.

I don't think Hope was ever a member of a MG company. If you remember, Rich, he was an infantry battalion commander in KRRC. He joined No. 57 Battalion Machine Gun Corps as its commander on 5 February 1918, almost a full month ahead of its administrative formation on 1 March.

On the photographs I have two other subjective observations. First, looking at the posed MG photo one can imagine strain, stress and gravitas etched through experience of war on Hope's face when, in fact, the other photos show he was probably born looking like that! A salutory lesson in photo-interpretation. Second, I have a feeling that photograph is one of a series where each section or HQ company gets its photo with 'the boss' and 2IC. There are 16 ORs in rear (four gun teams) and the various NCOs which could be various section and sub-section leaders. The only problem I have with that is, if it is a 'complete' section it suggests a date later in the year as, on formation, the sections had full compliments of 7-8 junior officers and subalterns.

Cheers,

Simon

Simon, I'm really pleased other people have found this interesting because for me it has been fascinating from beginning to end. Next will be getting my head round the period maps so that I can refer to them whilst reading the diary and then Great Uncle's Alfred and Albert!

Hope transferred to the MGC on 27 December 1917 - London Gazette 13 April 1918 has him appointed to command a battalion from that date. He appears to have been a Chief Instructor prior to that - London Gazette 13 November 1917 has him appointed as such from 4 July 1917. He became a Brigadier General (replacing one who had been killed) on23 September 1918 and was replaced as CO of 57 Battalion by Lt. Col. B.H. Puckle DSO. I agree with Simon that this photo is the'boss' with some section (HQ is my bet) and probably early 1918. Note also that Hope has MGC cap and collars not KRRC so maybe put these up after his appointment in December 1917?

Gunner, Thank you for clarifying those dates. From reading the war diary I had noticed Hope seemed absent after the end of August, he only had one mention I think it was around 20 Sep when it recorded he gave an order and then no mention of him from that point right through to the diary's end in May 1919. From end of August the pages were signed by Buckle with a few exceptions, when it was one Major or another, although the diary didn't seem to make clear where Hope had gone. Now that we have confirmed he was absent from the 57th Bn for Winter 1918/19 it does seem everything is pointing towards early 1918 for the photo.

I checked the photo last night with the trusty magnifying glass. The 'white' on his chest does seem to be a ribbon of some kind, but I could be mistaken Perhaps we won't ever work that out for certain but with all your help I do feel we seem to have drained as much information out of this photo as we possibly can. I certainly know infinetly more about the people, the battalion and the context then when I started and this process has been a real catalyst making me want to learn much more about the Western front and 1918. Thank you all for contributing, and thank you for keeping me on track as I tried clumsily to take in all the new information.

If anyone reading this has anything to do with the drill hall project can you pm me - I've sent a message via the website but nothing heard yet. I just need a little advice about putting some info into the local drill hall informing people about the buildings origins and proud past.

Thank you!

Rich

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If anyone reading this has anything to do with the drill hall project can you pm me - I've sent a message via the website but nothing heard yet. I just need a little advice about putting some info into the local drill hall informing people about the buildings origins and proud past.

Thank you!

Rich

Try Gwyn aka Pal Dragon.

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Thanks for that Martin just tried messaging him but his inbox is full.

Rich

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Thanks for that Martin just tried messaging him but his inbox is full.

Rich

It's Mark and Gwyn's a lady :D

No worries!

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A long shot but here goes...

http://www.flickr.co...N04/8049046308/

This photo shows a group of men from the MGC. Sorry for the external link but I couldn't work out how to resize it to include it in this post. I know it is a group of men from the Machine Gun Corp because I recognise their cap badges (my knowledge of first world war insignia doesn't go much beyond that!). I think it might be a group of men from the 57th Battalion MGC, as that was the unit my Great Grandfather Cyril Packham ended his war with. He was disembodied in March 1919 and his form Z.21 shows 57th Battalion MGC. Prior to that he served with 2/5th The Buffs between November 1914 and Oct 1917. The photo has been handed down through the family with a couple of individual photos of him in the Buffs. I think I can recognise Cyril in the group photo - middle row (first standing row) fourth from the left but it is hard to be certain. If it is him he certainly looks less fresh faced after four years or so in the army and several months in the field!

I am very much a newcomer to this type of research and I have posted a link to this photo here in the hope that you more experienced 'old hands' might be able to tell me more about the men, their insignia, and who they might have been? Is it feasible that someone out there could identify someone in this photo which might help identify the other subjects or the group as a whole? Cyril's war record was destroyed in the blitz so I can't get any help there. There are 16 privates in this photo, one Second Lieutenant, one older (more senior?) officer of unknown rank (his gloves cover up the rank emblems on his sleeves, can you see anything else in his uniform to identify his rank?), a Company Sergeant Major, a Sergeant, two Corporals and Three Lance Corporals (if I'm reading all the rank insignia correctly). Does a group of men of this size and of these ranks represent any kind of typical unit in the British Army or the MGC at this time, or shed any light on why they might have gathered together for a group photo? What do some of the other insignia mean - for example the seated figures second from left and far right have some kind of emblem above their respective stripes on their upper left and right arms - what is that emblem and what does it mean? Many of the men seem to have square darker colour patches on their upper left and right arm - can you tell anything from that? At least three of the men seem to have arm bands around their upper left arm - again, can you shed any light on what this might be signifying? In one of the individual photos which you can see by scrolling left or right Cyril himself seems to have a signal specialist badge, does this have any bearing on how I should try and interpret the group photo?

In short with an experienced pair of eyes can you see tell me anything about this photo that might help me understand who these men were or what they did? Clutching at straws I know but I'll be very grateful for any help, advice or info that you might be able to share with me that can only increase my knowledge and enjoyment of what is a treasured family heirloom.

Regards

Richard

I am confident that the NCO seated right is wearing a hammer and tongs badges and he is an armourer. I have seen the badge so many times on uniform and it is unmistakeable.

I believe the arm bands indicate either and instructor or a squad leader/duty student on a machine gun training course. This was and still is common on such courses. The course officer and warrant officer are seated centre, along with probably the assistant instructor (subaltern). Such an organisation has existed for a long time and is still the norm at the infantry school.

The odd badges appear to me to be Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry. South Lancs is another possibility though.

post-599-0-62859300-1350244139_thumb.jpg

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It's Mark and Gwyn's a lady :D

No worries!

Doh! No wonder the good lady is ignoring me!! Rich

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