14th Sikhs 29th Indian Infantry Brigade

[gilly100]

HI All

One unit history I am struggling to find is the above, and have tried all the ususal sources including Turner and Donovan. To give balance to the writing on Hill 60 Gallipoli, can anyone let me know where there is a copy of such, or if they have one, is there much detail on the fighting at Hill 60 in August 1915, following the failures on Chunuk Bair and Hill Q. Have all the Gurkhas required now.

Cheers

Ian

[Crunchy]

Hi Ian,

Is this the book you are looking for http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=cm4p774,hnal40LrOmOcTCfVW,Q_1564499210_2:5:413&bq=author%3Dtimoteus%2520elmo%26title%3D14th%2520king%2520george%27s%2520own%2520ferozepore%2520sikhs

Regards

Chris

[Crunchy]

Ian,

The link doesn't seem to be working. Go to bookfinder.com , type in 14th Sikhs and it will come up, hit the title and the various vendors selling it will then be shown.

Regards

Chris

[gilly100]

Thanks Chris

I guess I will order it, although very little details on the content in it that I could find. There is a 1948 published history by a Percy Bamford also, but seems unavailable or out of print etc. One better than none though!

Cheers

Ian

[Crunchy]

Hi Iain,

Just looked up Amazon and found this about the book:

Please note that the content of this book primarily consists of articles available from Wikipedia or other free sources online. The 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs was a regiment of the British Indian Army they can trace their origins to the Regiment of Ferozepore formed in 1846. The regiment had a number of different titles over the following years, the 14th Bengal Native Infantry 1861–1864, the 14th (The Ferozepore) Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry 1864–1885, the 14th Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry (Ferozepore Sikhs) 1885–1901, the 14th (Ferozepore) Sikh Infantry 1901–1903 and finally after the Kitchener reforms of the Indian Army in 1903 the 14th Ferozepore Sikhs. Further Changes in name followed the 14th Prince of Wales's Own Ferozepore Sikhs 1906–1910, the 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs 1910–1922. To honour the visit of the Prince and Princess of Wales to Indian they took part in the Rawalpindi Parade 1905. In World War I they took part in the Mesopotamia Campaign with the 51st Brigade, 17th Indian Division.

The Bamford book is not available

Regards

Chris

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Ian

If you can get to London, the War Diary is in the National Archives at Kew in this file:

WO 95/4272 14 Battalion Sikhs 1915 Sept. - Dec.

War Diaries rarely mention men by name other than officers,. but the location of the unit, and a brief description of its activities, is usually given for each day.

I don't know whether the diary is available online but you can find out by visiting www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and seleciting the section "DocumentsOnline".

Good hunting!

Ron

[keithmroberts]

there seems to be a nasty little industry going of putting together "books" made by downloading a few articles from Wikipedia and other easy sources and then offering them on a print when ordered basis. I was nearly caught by one last year when following up the career of a WW1 naval officer.

Keith

[Crunchy]

Ian,

There is another book on the 14th Sikhs written by Colonel F.E.G. Talbot in 1937. Published by the RUSI and about 167 pages.

Regards

Chris

[Steven Broomfield]

If you can wait until this evening, I can check in Perkins' guide to the regimental histories of the Empire and Commonwealth forces. That will at least give you an idea what to expect from any decent "proper" histories.

[Steven Broomfield]

According to Perkins:

"The 14th King george's Own Sikhs, The 1st Battalion (KGO) (Ferozepore Sikhs) The 11th Sikh Regiment 1846-1933" (Capt F E G Talbot, for the RUSI 1937) as Chris says.It has 164 pages, of which 2/3 deal with the Great War. Sounds good to me. I've just checked and it seems not be available as a N&M reprint.

[gilly100]

Thanks for your posts fellas

I will lay off the new history, mainly garnered from internet articles etc, as was alluded to by Chris and Keith. I will hold out for a copy of the other two, which will no doubt glean much more needed information. Many thanks to all of you for your help. The War Diary in London I will not be able to get at this stage, as a London visit beyond my bank account. Shame the month of August is missing , as important in context of August offensive and Hill 60.

Cheers All

Ian

[gilly100]

Hi All on this thread

Am still hunting the full title and details of the book by Percy Bamford on the 14th Sikhs, published apparently in 1948. Got feelers out for this one and Talbot's in 1937. Patience may be the key, although I managed to pick up the history of the 7th Indian Mountain Artillery from Turner and Donovan - good score.

Cheers

Ian

[bushfighter]

Gilly

Greetings

If you haven't already done it you can download the History of the Indian Mountain Artillery (it includes a Gallipoli chapter) here:

http//:archive.org/details/IndianMountainArtillery (On the Internet Archive)

All the Gallipoli Indian Mountain Artillery war diaries can be downloaded from the Australian War Memorial.

Look under First World War Diaries and then Artillery.

Harry

[gilly100]

Thanks Harry

Unfortunately the AWM4 unit diaries for the Indian Mtn Artillery only cover April/May 1915, which is no good to me. Will check your other source and many thanks. I have the other AWM source for 29th Indian Inf Brig HQ on AWM6 187 barcode 658092. See how we go from here and always hopeful a unit history on the 14th Sikhs will fall out of the sky into my lap in due course!

Cheers

Ian

[Crunchy]

Ian,

According to Amazon.com the full title of Percy Bamford's book is 1st King George V's own battalion,: The Sikh Regiment; the 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs, 1846-1946, published by Gale and Polden 1948.

Regards

Chris

[gilly100]

Thanks Harry and Chris

I amazingly managed to download the whole 20MB file on the Indian Mountain Artillery( took half the night!!) so thanks Harry, although very little Gallipoli info for me, but some good stuff nevertheless on some of the men and the guns. Chris, I have written down the full titles for both Talbot and Bamford's histories and will bide my time until one or both turn up. Only a matter of time - and money I guess!!! Cheers

Ian

[Crunchy]

Ian,

I don't know where you live, but there are copies of Bamford's book in libraries in the UK here http://www.worldcat.org/title/1st-king-george-vs-own-battalion-the-sikh-regiment-the-14th-king-georges-own-ferozepore-sikhs-1846-1946/oclc/693524&referer=brief_results

and of Talbot's book here http://www.worldcat.org/title/14th-king-georges-own-sikhs-the-1st-battalion-kg0-ferozepore-sikhs-the-11th-sikh-regiment-1846-1933/oclc/12063960

Regards

Chris

[gilly100]

Thanks Chris but I live in Bali, Indonesia, so no libraries and SLOW internet in my neck of the woods. As I mentioned earlier, I have managed to download the 20MB file of the book on the Indian Mtn Artillery, which of course I only bought th other day!!!! Not much in it I am afraid but will find something of use!!

Cheers

Ian

[ddycher]

Ian

Over the years have put together a far bit on the 14th Sikhs as its CO was Philip Palin who went on the command the 75th Division. PM me with an email address and I will send you what I have.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Gents

Have sent. Hope its useful.

One further thought. Worth trolling through the Galipolian if you have not already. Savory wrote extensively for this.

Volumes I know have ref's inc :

8,9,12,13,14,14,15,16,18,19,21,23

There are probably more. Cant help with copies if you need.

Regards

Dave

[Guest]

Ian

There is a copy of the book 1st King George V's own Battalion: The Sikh Regiment: the 14th King Georg'e Own Ferozepore Sikh's 1846-1946 in the Imperial War Museum Library. I can trundle down there one day over the next few weeks if you can wait that long. From memory the IWM does allow one to take copies of the relevant pages. I live less than a mile from the IWM. I suspect there will be very little on Gallipoli given the history covers 100 years.

On the subject of the 14th Sikhs I noticed that one of their Officers was one of the Indian Army Officers who had been in the UK at the outbreak of the War and prevented from returning to his Regiment. He was Capt M Wace and was sent the 7th Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers who as you will know also served at Gallipoli. He was wounded on 15th August 1915 on Kiretch Tepe Sirt only about 6 miles from where his own Battalion of 14th Sikhs was serving. According to the May 1915 Army List he was serving as the Adjutant and the War Diary also confirms this..

From the 7th RMF War Diary of 15th August.

"An attack was ordered along the crest of Kiretch Tepe Sirt. The 6th Bn RMF on the right of the crest down SE Slope with 7th Bn RDF in support.: 7th Bn RMF to advance keeping level with the 5th Bn R INNIS FUS…14:00 at 14:00 the Bn began to advance C and D Coys leading, A and B in support. Commands of Coys were now: A Capt CORDNER, B Capt DUNN, C Lt GOOD, D Capt ALPIN... the advance was premature as the 6th RMF had not got away and the left flank of 7th Bn RMF was thus exposed to fire from the crest of the ridge. Casualties occurred as soon as the leading platoons cleared the trenches. The leading platoons of C and D Coy were taken in to shelter by Lts POWELL and GOOD. The remainder of the 1st line remained under cover of a small hillock about 150 yards in advance of the trenches. The snipers on the crest now turned their attention on B Coy enfilading the trench and killing Capt DUNN and Lt O'DUFFY. A Coy further on the left moved forward over broken ground without suffereing many casualties. B Coy was lead on into shelter of the hillock by RSM M STACEY. The leading l nes were halted by shrapnel and the Bn dug in with entrenching tools awaiting advance of 6th Bn RMF.

Capt and Adj M WACE was wounded just in front of the small hill presumably taking orders to the leading platoons. He was brought down to the beach under a hot fire by stretcher bearers having been attended to by Lt CLARKS RAMC

.... about 16:30 the 6th Bn RMF and 7th Bn RMF carried the trench immediately in front of JEPHSON'S POST, capturing 30 prisoners. They then advanced along the crest . The monitor shelling the hill ??? advanced. The whole Bn now advanced and led by Lt Col GORE advanced without opposition through very dense scrub and over very steep gullies to a line running from the PIMPLE to the sea. Orders were here received that the Bn should withdraw to original trenches, 7th RDF taking over the line whilst Engineers got to work on breastwork. The Bn therefore withdrew reaching the old line about 20:30. They were then ordered to go up to the crest of JEPHSON'S POST where they spent the night. CASUALTIES: Killed: Officers: Capt J V DUNN, Lt K E O'DUFFY, OR s 11. Wounded: Officers: Capt M WACE, Lt H G MONTAGU, Lt R E LAWLOR, OR s 42. Missing, presumed killed: ORs 7... Lt H G MONTAGU received orders to proceed to beach at 09:00 thence to proceed to report himself at War Office. He attached himself to the 6th RMF on the way however and was wounded with them

.

MG

[gilly100]

Thanks Martin and David

I am in no rush. I will see what info is waiting for me in Perth when I go back there. The AWM does have the odd file on 29th Indian Inf Brig, so hopefully there will be some info there at least. It is starting to appear that the 14th Sikhs won't have as much on them as other units, although it also appears they played no real attacking role at Hill 60 anyways. Mainly the Gurkhas it seems from this brigade anyway. Interesting stuff on your RMF at Suvla and Indian Army officers.

I am a member of the Gallipoli Assn so the Journal CD Rom should be on its way by now as I know Savory of the 14th Sikhs was prolific in this journal.

I am quite enjoying getting to know about all these other units, that some of us Australians have tended to ignore, largely brought about I think, on what we were educated on about Gallipoli at school when we were kids during the 1960's and 70's. Barely a mention, rather shamefully I must say, from my memories. Some of the casualty rates you have mentioned also give a very clear picture to the levels of sacrifice across ALL participants. Thanks for that also!! The Suvla show is very interesting, although I will refrain from going into it too much while Hill 60 remains a writing project as my brain will just not cope on the levels of info!!!

Cheers

Ian

[gilly100]

Hi All

If anyone out there knows of a copy of either of the histories (by Talbot or Bamford) on the 14th KGO Ferozepore Sikh's for sale please advise, as I have had no joy sourcing either of these books. Am also chasing the unit war diaries for the above, as well as the 1/5th, 1/6th and 2/10th Gurkhas. Any and all assistance appreciated. I plan soon to bring these units into the lead in chapter, briefly explaining their ops prior to Hill 60.

Regards

Ian