Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 I have had this German Trench Dagger in my Collection for the best part of 50 years, it was one of the very first items I bought as a young teenager. The top of the handle was engraved ' 7. 6. 1917 Ypres ', it is clearly a Ypres battlefield souvenir, which I have always assumed was taken by a British soldier due to the spelling of ' Ypres ', as opposed to the German spelling. The other point of interest, is that the ' Y ' appears to be reversed. If it is dated with the English date version, it is 7th June, 1917, if the German date version, then July 6, 1917. The maker's mark on the ricasso is ' Gottlieb Hammesfahr - Solingen. Foche ', the other side of the blade ricasso shows the German proof mark. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 I have one very similar but marked UNION over Zella St. Bl. It has a 5" double edged blade that one could shave with. The knife was given to me by the son of a ww1 POW who told me that his father was given it by a German farmer, on his release from captivity . My understanding is that it is a'Jaeger Knife' as carried by many hunters in Germany before WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 I don't wish to disagree, but it is one of a type of stock standard, purpose manufactured trench knife made during the war, usually post 1915. Different manufacturers often had different shaped grips,guards and blades. The prewar hunting knife which was also commonly carried as a fighting knife was usually made with stag horn/stag foot/ebony grips generally a better made knife in terms of grips and appearance. The Ypres marking I would guess is probably British in origin, I think that the reversed 'Y' was caused by the downward stroke going too far and to correct it would make the 'Y' look like an 'X', just a case of "oh well, I know where I got it" by the tommy. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2012 My understanding is that it is a'Jaeger Knife' as carried by many hunters in Germany before WW1. This is definitely a German WW1 Military Trench Knife or Fighting Knife, and is well documented as such. The maker of this Trench Knife has been making all sorts of knives since the early 1800's, so they could have made a similar knife. Here is a very good write up on the WW1 German Trench Knife/Fighting Knife :- This is a classic example of the World War I era German military Nahkampfmesser or close combat knife. The knife is in about VERY FINE condition and retains its original scabbard. The knife is clearly marked in three horizontal lines, on the reverse ricasso, GOTTLIEB / HAMMESFAHR / SOLINGEN – FOCHE. The obverse ricasso shows a (CROWN) D proof or inspection mark. The Gottlieb Hammesfahr company was founded in Solingen-Foche in 1804. The knife is of the typical World War I “trench knife” style, with a 6” dagger blade and an overall length of 11”. The knife has slab wooden scales (grips) with 9 diagonal grooves to improve the gripping surface. The scales are retained with a pair of pins. The same pattern of knife is depicted as figure 3-20 in Knives of War by Gordon Hughes, Barry Jenkins & Robert Buerlein. The original metal scabbard is present and retains the original leather belt loop and knife-retaining strap. The leather remains supple and in fully functional condition. The scabbard retains about 90% of its black painted finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 One is always learning. Unfortunately I've just changed my computer for one running under windows 7 and non of my scanners work. I'll post a photo of my knife when I can get one. A google search reveals that mine is of the generic type that both of you discribe. Knives are not my field and to be honest, I haven't got a lot of interest in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2012 One is always learning. Unfortunately I've just changed my computer for one running under windows 7 and non of my scanners work. I'll post a photo of my knife when I can get one. A google search reveals that mine is of the generic type that both of you discribe. Knives are not my field and to be honest, I haven't got a lot of interest in it. We all have different WW1 interests, mine covers lots of different topics, I look forward to seeing your knife. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 If it is dated with the English date version, it is 7th June, 1917, if the German date version, then July 6, 1917. Not so, LF. Germany uses the same date format, DD-MM-YY, as Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Not so, LF. Germany uses the same date format, DD-MM-YY, as Britain. Thanks for the info, I always assumed the ' Europeans ' used the MM-DD-YY format, or at least back then. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Uploaded with ImageShack.us Some German trench knives, at right the Gottlieb Hammesfahr Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Some German trench knives, at right the Gottlieb Hammesfahr Cnock Cnock, An excellent selection, many thanks for posting them. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 The newly manufactured (from either Pakistan or India) version, true it’s not fooling anyone in this condition. But buyers beware once its scabbard/knife is painted and both are artificially aged. Odd they selected this particular manufacturer too. LF and Cnock, no I do not feel for a second either of your examples are anything but VERY original. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2012 The newly manufactured (from either Pakistan or India) version, true it’s not fooling anyone in this condition. But buyers beware once its scabbard/knife is painted and both are artificially aged. Odd they selected this particular manufacturer too. LF and Cnock, no I do not feel for a second either of your examples are anything but VERY original. Regards, Lance Lance, Good info, Buyer Beware! Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Uploaded with ImageShack.us Some German trench knives, at right the Gottlieb Hammesfahr Cnock Thankyou Cnock My Knife is almost exactly the same as the second from the left, but it has 11 grooves in the handle instead of 13. The blade is bright, double edged all the way up and is 140mm long. My scabbard is about in the same condition but the leather is present and supple, it is banded round the scabbard and has a vertical sewn seam down the middle at the front. I have owned it for over 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Thanks for the info, I always assumed the ' Europeans ' used the MM-DD-YY format, or at least back then. I'm not sure where the US format of MM-DD-YY came from, but it wasn't Germany. I've just translated a German document dated 5.7.1916 , reporting on German resistance to the Allied offensive on the Somme — and modern German docs use the same dating format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2012 I'm not sure where the US format of MM-DD-YY came from, but it wasn't Germany. I've just translated a German document dated 5.7.1916 , reporting on German resistance to the Allied offensive on the Somme — and modern German docs use the same dating format. I also checked some old German documents, and as you said they are dated using the DD-MM-YY, I must have been thinking of the American dating formula of MM-DD-YY. Again many thanks for pointing that out. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Nice knives - that manufacturer Gottlieb Hammesfahr also produced S98/05 bayonets during the war, usually in conjunction with some other firms. "Gottlieb Hammesfahr were a long established firm of cutlers in the Solingen suburb of Foche. They were also well known suppliers of drop forgings and were therefore in a position at the beginning of the war, to produce not only blade blanks but complete bayonets when the need arose." A.Carter They are reknown for their Pyramid trademark which is usually found with their manufacturer name stamped on the ricasso of the wartime bayonets. I have one of these bayonets stamped with the "double maker" mark. Gottlieb Hammesfahr as the blade forger and Schubert und Salzer as assembler. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 2 October , 2012 Share Posted 2 October , 2012 Hallo, URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/trenchknives.jpg/][/url] Uploaded with ImageShack.us this trench knive/bajonet DEMAG also remanufactured, the press button is flat on the fake ones Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 2 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 October , 2012 With Siege Gunner having correctly sorted out the date format for this Trench Dagger as it being dated 7th June, 1917, I have just realized the important significance of this Ypres battlefield souvenir, the 7th June, 1917 was the first day of ' The Battle of Messines ' - Ypres Salient. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 8 January , 2013 Share Posted 8 January , 2013 Some lovely knives on here. The Gottlieb Hammesfahr examples are widely reproduced and can easily fool someone who's not familiar with what to look for. Even the example in the photo with the description that LF posted (post #4) looks a bit dubious to me (rounded edges to the grips, typical dark rosewood, leather hanger without a prym snap, clean blade, no oxidation beneath the scuffed paint etc). I should point out however that the knife that is the main subject of this topic is a lovely, original example that I would gladly have in my collection. S Uploaded with ImageShack.us Ernst Busch Example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2013 Simon, Many thanks for posting your German knife, and I am pleased you liked my battlefield souvenir from the Battle of Messines - Ypres Salient, which has been in my Collection for some 50 years. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17107BM Posted 9 January , 2013 Share Posted 9 January , 2013 Thanks to all that have taken the time to post information and images on Trench Daggers. I have learned a great deal from this thread. On a subject i have to admit that i knew very little. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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