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Remembered Today:

M1893/5 Mauser in 7mm (any WWI use anywhere?)


4thGordons
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I am putting togther a bit of a "show and tell" on the evolution of the Infantry Rifle and in this time line the 7mm M1893/5 Mauser in has a bit part (small but perhaps important in spurring the development of other weapons which were to be WWI standards based on experience facing Mauser variants in the Spanish American and Boer Wars - for example...)

As I was thinking about this and it occurred to me that I couldn't think of any WWI use of the rifle...which seemed odd given the numbers that must have been around, and all the other (far older inferior) types that saw some service with second line troops or in far flung corners of the globe.

In addtion to the German Gew/Kar 1888 and 1898 in 7.92mm of course, I know about the 7mm Chilean (M1912) and Brazillian Mausers (M1908) in British service, and of course the Belgian M1889 and Turkish Mausers (M1890/1893) in 7.65mm, Serbian M1899 in 7mm? and Swedish M1896 in 6.5mm and farther afield Argentinian M1891 Mausers in 7.65mm but were M1893/5 Mausers in 7mm used anywhere in WWI.

Perhaps the most obvious candidates would be in Southern Africa (given the Boer connection) but I don't recall seeing/reading of any.

I am sure I must have missed something and as soon as it is posted here I'll indudge in some Simpsonesque forehead slapping accompanied by appropriate Doh! sounds.....

Chris

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ahhhh hold on how about CUBA? What were the Cubans armed with?

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I am not sure, but I think I remember that in the history of the London Rifle Brigade there is a possibility that one of the Battalions used Boer Mauser 1896's for drill purposes. The weapons coming from a public school. Unfortunately I can't get at my copy to check, but someone on here might know for certain.

G

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Some discussion regarding the Spanish Mauser M1893 in this thread HERE. Russia and perhaps more unlikely Britain are possibilities, and YES Cuba for certain. LINK

Cheers, S>S

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Chris - as I said in my post in the thread quoted by S>S, there is no physical evidence that I know of to indicate that Britain actually received the first order of 65,000 7mm Mausers from Spain, but considerable circumstancial evidence that we did.

I think it is highly likely that the rifles were received and if so could have been issued initially to the New Armies and then sent on to Russia as were the Arisakas. The question of whether the second order for 200,000 Mausers ever happened is more debateable as the files in the National Archives are incomplete.

I will send you my draft chapter on the Spanish transactions by e-mail.

Regards

TonyE

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I have a 7mm Mauser, stamped Ludwig Lowe and Co Berlin. I often wondered how it ended up in the UK other than thinking it was a end of war bring back. I was unaware that the British were issued with them. As usual, this forum brings fascinating reading.

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Paul - can you post a picture of your rifle and give details of any markings, especially on the woodwork, please.

I have posted this before but it is a nice picture of a Merchant Navy crew, probably from a minesweeping trawler or DAMS. Most have Ross rifles but two have Chilean M1912 7mm Mausers.

Regards

Tonye

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I have a 7mm Mauser, stamped Ludwig Lowe and Co Berlin. I often wondered how it ended up in the UK ...

If it has the crest shown below stamped over the receiver it will be the M1912 Mauser that was made in Germany for the Chileans (shown with butt disc in TonyE's photo)

EDIT. Actually the M1912 was made in Steyr Austria not Germany. If its 7mm with Loewe on the siderail it could be a Spanish M1893, Brazilian M1894 or Chilean M1895.

Cheers, S>S

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Paul,

Is anything stamped on the side of the receiver in addition to the manufacturers name? For example

Mauser Espagnol Modelo 1893 or Mauser Chileno Modelo 1895?

From the pictures you have posted these look the best candidates

Chris

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Chris,

There is the proof house stamp and what looks like a lion.

S>S, it has been previously identified as a Spanish 1893 by Spanmau.com. Still no idea how it ended up in the UK though.

If only it could talk eh?

Mauser005.jpg

Mauser009.jpg

Mauser010.jpg

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That's interesting does it say model 1896?

I am out of my area here but if so I think this might be a Boer contract rifle.... which are quite sought after.

Chris

like this SEE HERE CLICK - it would seem to have the correct B range serial for one of the Boer contracts

Edited by 4thGordons
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Yes, definitely a M1896 B series Mauser that was made for the ZAR/Boer Republic - very nice rifle indeed. :thumbsup:

The symbol shown just below the serial number is the original German inspection mark, known as a 'fraktur'.

I believe the other Crown BNP is the British commercial proofing mark, standing for Birmingham Nitro Proof.

Cheers, S>S

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S>S thank you for the information, it shoots great.

Yes I can imagine that it would - I shoot the exact same action in my 1903 vintage Swedish M1896 (sportered for hunting) compared below. :w00t:

Your rifle may well have been a Boer War capture or 'bringback', but I believe some shipments were also intercepted while on the way to SAF.

Cheers, S>S

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Thanks for posting the pictures. I did wonder if it might have been an ex Royal Navy Chilean rifle, but I agree with S>S and Chris that it is most likely a Boer War capture or bring-back.

Regards

TonyE

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Tony, I was reading that some of the later Boer Contract rifles (like Paul's excellent example) could not be delivered and so were later restamped and sold to Chile so apparently there may be 1896 rifles with Chilean markings. Once source I read indicated that these rifles had their bolts turned down.

I have a couple of different preWWI mausers now - when I get home tonight I'll try and take come comparative pictures.

Chris

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I have a B series Mauser 1896, and several years ago I was told that most of them were landed in Portugese Delagoa Bay from the S.S. Pretoria, about May or June 1898 purchased by the Transvaal. Mine is quite tidy, although it is missing the safety latch, more ominously it has 10 equally spaced nicks up the woodwork! I cannot vouch for the info' above, but it was read out of what I was told was a very rare book on the history of the Mauser Rifle, which had a yellowish cover.

G

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The book on Boer Mausers with the yellow cover referred to by T8HANTS is almost certainly "Boer Rifles and Carbines of the Anglo-Boer War" by Dr Ron Bester ISBN 1-874979-02-2. Those who are interested in such rifles are VERY STRONGLY advised to obtain a copy! Alternatively, obtain the later book by Ron Bester and Associates: "Small Arms of the Anglo-Boer War" ISBN 1-874979-31-6. This also covers Boer handguns and British weapons.

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So - for comparative purposes some Mauser patterns. I can't get to my M1895 Chilean at the moment and I did not included standard Gew 98 style rifles

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With the information that Gareth provided in post #3 and the numbers of these M1896 that could have been in British hands at the time, is it worth revisiting THIS thread.?

The mystery rifle on the right of that picture does fit the description of the M1896 (I have taken the measurements) and it also features the prominent clip on the front band.

In the original photo this clip is very noticeable as it does reflect the light. I have added the picture of the band below, and there are many more excellent photos linked HERE

(Remember to scroll down to bottom of that page where you can get 'up close and personal' with one of those Boer rifles) TonyE may need to add a new chapter to his book.!

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-04125300-1349392520_thumb.j

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I still think it is an Arisaka - the stock shape and thickness at the wrist is, for me much thicker than the Spanish Mauser's slim, straight stock wrist.

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I still think it is an Arisaka - the stock shape and thickness at the wrist is, for me much thicker than the Spanish Mauser's slim, straight stock wrist.

Yes I still fully agree with that position as well, going off that original photo. I guess my point was that the Spanish M1893 and Boer M1896 are virtually identical rifles.

So given that, perhaps the argument should now be between the Arisaka and both those Mauser rifles, especially given the M1896 was known to be present in Britain.

Anyway it just adds another twist, and of course everything is always open to conjecture. We may have to keep those Boer rifles in mind if any more evidence pops up.

Looking at your photos above, I would imagine the greatest difficulty with collecting milsurp Mausers from that period would be knowing exactly what designation it is.?

Given the amount of rebuilds, refurbishments and rebarreling they would have been subjected to. Has your Turk M1893 had its original markings scrubbed in the mix.?

Cheers, S>S

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