VC by election and other VC stuff

[ttd0]

I read somewhere that when a whole unit performed a gallant act that the unit would decide by ballot who would get the VC(s).

How did this process work, would several members be nominated and then the rest vote or could you jut go and vote for yourself.

Also heard of the story that if a VC holder was sentenced to death he would be allowed to wear the medal on the scaffold. Although I don't think there was ever a need to excersie this right.

Has anyone got any other VC related trivia.

[Guest Hill 60]

Reading from the 2 volume set, 'Monuments to Courage' it says about Election:

"The award by ELECTION allowed for recipients to be selected by ballot among their comrades, where units performed collective acts of 'heroic gallantry', where no one individual can be identified as outstanding, the number of awards dictated by the size of the unit (s) involved".

Original Royal Warrant clauses included expulsion, allowing for FORFEITURE in 'wholly discreditable circumstances' of which there had been 8 cases. King George V felt strongly that the decoration should never be taken away from any man, even if a recipient 'be sentenced to be hanged for murder'.

Other trivia can include:

There a three instances of fathers and sons being awarded the VC.

Four instances where brothers won the VC.

Four uncles and nephews won the VC.

Four pairs of cousins won the VC.

Five civilians won the VC.

Six awards of the VC made when not in the face of the enemy.

Vcs ELECTED by ballot totalled 47.

And, of course, 3 men have been awarded a bar to their VCs.

Lee

[ttd0]

Thanks for reply

2/3 of the double VC winners were RAMC officers.

Noel Chavasse's VC and bar are in the Imperial War Museum and I went to see them last weekend but they had been removed from display for some reason (arrgh). I did see his brother's MC group and his sister's nursing group.

Tim

[Guest Hill 60]

I also went to the IWM, about 3 weeks ago, to see the VC group to Capt Edward Kinder Bradbury only to find that they have also been taken out of the display, bah humbug!

I did see Lieutenant Colonel Martin-Leake's VC & Bar group + personal items which are held at the Army Medical Services Museum, they have 24 VCs on display + a reproduction group to Capt Chavasse's medals.

Lee

[Marco]

"Also heard of the story that if a VC holder was sentenced to death he would be allowed to wear the medal on the scaffold. Although I don't think there was ever a need to excersie this right."

The story as I recall it: it was put to the king what to do with a VC holder who’d done something wrong (ungentlemanly behavior, theft etc.) and if they should in such a case withdraw the VC. The kings reply was that as far as he was concerned a man could be hanged for his crime and still retain (and wear) his VC.

Regards,

Marco

[Guest Pete Wood]

I found this on a web site: www.chapter-one.com/vc/unusual.asp

An expulsion clause allowed for a recipient's name to be erased from the official [VC] Register in certain wholly discreditable circumstances, and his pension cancelled.

Although there are eight recorded cases of forfeiture, in accordance with the terms of the original Warrant, all eight men are still included in the main total and no mention of the forfeiture is made except as a note at the bottom of the War Office List, which covers the period 1856 to August 1914.

Midshipman Edward DANIEL, Crimean War

Convicted of desertion / evading court martial. Warrant authorising forfeiture: 4 Sept 1861.

Sergeant James McGUIRE, Indian Mutiny.

Convicted of theft of a cow. 22 Dec 1862.

Private Valentine BAMBRICK, Indian Mutiny

Convicted of assault and theft of a comrade's medals. 3 Dec 1863.

Private Michael MURPHY, Indian Mutiny

Convicted of theft of 10 bushels of oats. 5 Mar 1872.

Private Thomas LANE, China

Convicted of desertion on active service & theft of a horse, arms and accoutrements. 7 Apr 1881.

Private Frederick CORBETT, Egypt & Sudan

Convicted of embezzlement & theft from an officer. 30 Jul 1884.

Gunner James COLLIS, Afghan War

Convicted of bigamy. 18 Nov 1895.

Private George RAVENHILL, Boer War

Convicted of theft of iron. 24 Aug 1908.

[Guest Hill 60]

To quote again from 'Monuments to Courage':

..seventeen recipients committed suicide; five died whilst in mental asylums; eleven spent their final years in the workhouse; two were murdered (a possible third is a matter of conjecture) and forty-one were killed as a result of road, rail or riding accidents..

The British Unknown Warrior was NOT awarded the VC, although the US Unknown Warrior WAS. The British Unknown Warrior was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Lee

[ttd0]

All very interesting.

As regard the 17 suicides. Robert Jones VC one of the few Rorkes Drift recipients that were actually born in Wales is supposed to have commited suicide about 11 years after the battle. He suffered permanantly from his spear wounds and shot himself in the head with a shot gun.

However new evidence seems to indicate that it was an accident, he left the farm house where he was working and more than likely tripped over the doorstep, put the gun out to support himself and managed to discharge it.

One of his direct descendents used to be my next door neighbour.

I always find it sad when VC recipients meet there end in car accidents etc, after having fought gallantry through the war they go and get killed on their own doorstep.

[brownag]

The Royal Marines at Zeebrugge voted by ballot for at least one VC.

The 78th Highlanders at Lucknow also had one ballot VC, it was awarded to their surgeon.

L/Cpl Robert McBeath of the 5th Seaforths won his VC at Cambrai in 1917 taking out machine gun posts. In 1914 the Duke of Sutherland had said any man of the 5th Seaforths winning a VC would be given a farm after the War. McBeath didn't like farming however, and sold up and moved to Vancouver and joined the Police. (He was also a Sergeant in the Canadian Seaforths).

In 1922 he was shot and killed on duty. He was only 24 and had survived High Wood, Beaumont Hamel, Arras, Cambrai, The Spring Offensive etc..

[kevin]

Selection or Election by comrades comes under Rule 13 of The Royal Warrrant. Dated 29th Jan 1856.

Regards Kevin

[Conor Dodd]

Major John Vincent Holland V.C. was awarded the V.C. for an action at Guillemont along with 26 other bombers I haven't found any e vidence of a vote in this case and I presume he got it because he was the commanding officer and almost all the other bombers got bravery awards and in one case recommended for a commision. His Uncle also won the V.C. in the Beor War.

Conor