1:10,000 Map of Kaiajik Aghala (Hill 60)

[Guest]

A was trawling through the War Diaries of the 29th India Bde at TNA today and stumbled on a large contoured 1:10,000 scale map centred on Koja Chemen Tepe/ Chunk Bair. I have never seen a Britsih 1:10,000 scale map outside sheets 104 & 105 and Sheets 118 & 119, so this was a real surprise. The NW corner has detail of Akaijik Aghala (Hill 60) and Kabak Kuyu, Damakjelik Bair, Kavaklar, Susak Kuyu (Gurkha Wells), Derviskh Ali Kuyu and Kazlar Chair, Kaiajik dere and slightly south, Chailak Dere.

I used TNA overhead cameras to get an image but the focus is not quite as good as I would like so I am going to get a digitial scan. Just FYI as anyone can order copies of the scan once it has been done. The map was a bout 2' square.

Also the India Bde HQ had annotated the map with trench locations. No date given. See a sample of the NW corner below.....

[JoMH]

Hello Martin,

I would like to order a copy of the map once it is scanned. Could you give me TNA reference for it?

Thank you for finding it!

Joanna

[Guest]

Could give me TNA reference for it? Joanna

Jo - I am to go back next week to get it done. As soon as it is requested the whole diary gets taken out of circulation for a few weeks. I have some more research to complete and will put in the request once this is done. The pages were so compressed together that it seemed that had not been looked at for some time. I would be interested to find out when the file was last taken out.There was a remarkably large amount of info on the Sikh and Gurkha battalions, medical services and the Bde War Diary which was particularly detailed and complete. Sadly the 14th Sikh's War Diary for August is MIA, starting only in September.

Once I have the reference for the scan I will of course let you know. The contours are beautifully detailed. I hope to do an overlay on Google Earth and compare the detailed contours with the Sevki Pasha maps to try and establish if they have a common source - If i recollect I think the British Maps were based on older Turkish maps with questionable accuracy and the Sevki Pasha maps were prepared after 1916.....

[JoMH]

Many thanks - I look forward to hearing about the reference - and about your comparisons. What a wonderful find.

[gilly100]

HI Martin

Fantastic stuff and looks similar to another map I have which I will post to you shortly. Nice to see the trenches well marked and easy to see where the Turks had theirs and where they joined the Allied ones. Can plainly see where the Gurkha trench runs off the D-C trench out to north west. It also makes it clear that the Turks had the main high ground of Hill 60.

The 29th Indian Inf Brigade HQ war diary is also accessible via National Archives in Australia and has an Australian War Memorial reference number. I have someone in Canberra getting it for me at present. It is in AWM6 187, barcode number 658092. August-November 1915.

Will be in touch. I had a feeling the Indian Army stuff might be least looked at and it gives me some hope I can cover these good troops well for Hill 60 at least!

Cheers

Ian

[Guest]

HI Martin

Fantastic stuff and looks similar to another map I have which I will post to you shortly. Nice to see the trenches well marked and easy to see where the Turks had theirs and where they joined the Allied ones. Can plainly see where the Gurkha trench runs off the D-C trench out to north west. It also makes it clear that the Turks had the main high ground of Hill 60.

The 29th Indian Inf Brigade HQ war diary is also accessible via National Archives in Australia and has an Australian War Memorial reference number. I have someone in Canberra getting it for me at present. It is in AWM6 187, barcode number 658092. August-November 1915.

Will be in touch. I had a feeling the Indian Army stuff might be least looked at and it gives me some hope I can cover these good troops well for Hill 60 at least!

Cheers

Ian

I had a good plough through the 4th, 5th and 6th Gurkha Rifles and 14th Sikh War Dairies too. I think you will be able to glean some dates that will help you resolve/confirm dates that the 29th Indian Inf Bde units movements and when they were in specific trenches. The diaries are not particularly detailed due to the acute shortage of British Officers. Typically there is just one page (War Dairy/Intelligence Report Form C 2118) per month and written in tiny handwriting. I found the Bde War Diary to be more informative. I took photos of the August (where available) and Sep pages. Such a pity the 14th Sikh Septmeber War Diary is missing. The only published history of this unit is the successor Sikh regimental history which is prohibitively expensive.

[Neil Mackenzie]

Martin.

Great find. Can I also ask for a copy of the scan oncee it is available.

Many thanks.

[Guest]

Sadly, No.

I am an ardent supporter of the concept that the National Archives has enormous costs which need to be covered.

The storage, preservation, management and marketing of these national assets have a cost which needs to be at least matched by their revenues. It is not free. In the case of digitisation of a map, I am happy to bear the initial cost as it is (to me) worth it. It lowers the unit cost for future demand. Please do not take this personally. Can I very, very, tautologically and politely suggest that you approach TNA and buy your own copy once it is digitised. TNA is not sophisticated enough to advertise the fact that hundreds of people have paid the base cost to digitise many of their assets. I would suggest that the best course is that I pass on the reference number when it is done. The fee will help finance the gigantic costs of preserving the archives for future generations.. This level of access is almost unknown outside the UK and its ex-colonies. It is extremely rare and we should be thankful for the rare opportunity for low cost access. I can only point to the (relatively smaller) Australian and NZ archives as better examples. The level of access that British people have is unmatched in the world and we should be thankful for this. It is not free. The unit cost to the individual will be minimal. If you tried to have similar access in the US, Russia, India, China you would rightly be disappointed by the Govts of these command economies and large population bases. I have lived in all these countries and it is a salutary reminder when living in these ghastly places what marvelous (sic) and unbridled access we have in this freest of countries. (As an aside you will see how the US's spell-check has even infiltrated the mighty GWF and relentlessly stalks the beautiful 475,000 word English language in an attempt to make marvellous 'marvelous'. I digress). Try doing the same in any other country and you will immediately experience what I mean. We in Britain are blessed by our archives and in my humble opinion should be very, very happy to pay the extremely low cost.

My personal view is that the GWF has a huge potential legal liability as a platform that allows people to advertise sharing copyright material under the questionable cover that the material are copies. For example, War Diaries are Govt material regardless of the number of copies and are not subject to the 75 year rule. What people fail to recognise is that 'copies' are what it says on the tin - they are copies of Govt material. that are subject to legal protection. The fact that the Govt is toothless an does little about it does not absolve our personal responsibility.. So, in my humble opinion, anyone advertising War Diaries is in breach of Govt copyright. Period. I have taken (expensive) legal advice on this as I am writing a book, so I need to know. There is a subtle but critical difference in using material for research and for discussion as per this forum -there are very specific legal guidelines under UK copyright laws on the % to be used from original documents for discussion for reviews or research.

This is legally distinctly different from the systemic proactive advertising of copyright material. I think the forum owners have a contingent legal responsibility to ensure the GWF does not become an exchange for copyright material and from what I have seen they are ignorant of the current UK laws. Rather than have a sub-section for free exchange of (in my opinion) of copyright material, the forum should replace this with "here is where you can access the material at low cost". and provide pointers. If we don't, these archives will simply die in the internet age as the necessary revenues evaporate (it is a narrow market) and the original (un-digitised) material will be lost to future generations. That would be a tragedy. On the flip side. institutions such as the National Army Museum charge copyright fees for material that they have no legal claim over. Nobody has (yet) challenged it. My book will.

It is a very personal view and one that will be at huge odds with some people on the GWF who deliberately and systematically pass on low cost archive material with no acknowledgement and in deliberate disregard to the respect of Govt copyright.

It will cost very little to obtain a legal copy once it has been digitised. I am sure the moderators and owners of this wonderful forum would be more than happy to expand on the costs of running a 'free' platform. Nothing is free. MG