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Remembered Today:

WW1 Ammunition Cart Discovered - or not?


bickerton16/625
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Folks,

I found this cart in a shed during my travels around the country and its been nagging at me ever since. It stood out as being old (and therefore of interest) and although it has obviously been much modified over the years, it was clear from the squared off blacksmith made nails that it came from the days before massed produced ironmongery. It spent all of its working life in a now defunct sawmill as a repository for odds and ends of offcuts etc.

One friend i spoke to thought that the hubs of the wheel looked military in specification which got me thinking even more - he collects C20th artilllery pieces so should be reliable! I enquired after it the other day and was told that it may end up on the Bonfire on Guy Fawkes Night as its "getting in the way" - a thought which filled me with horror if it is what I hope it is!

Anyway, I've been given first refusal but I would like to establish if it is a WW1 Ammo cart or not. I hope you can get an idea from the picture.I have one or two other which I can post if required

Any help or guidance anyone can give me would be much appreciated....

post-92132-0-69966100-1348221372_thumb.j

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so put some cash behind the bar of Skindles, you skinflint!!

Bruce

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The ammunition cart theory may not be correct however it does bear a good resemblance to a field cookers limber used for carrying sundry items and supplies for the field cooker itself. This is depending upon the dimensions

regards

Dave

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Definitely worth saving whatever it is, in very nice condition

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The ammunition cart theory may not be correct however it does bear a good resemblance to a field cookers limber used for carrying sundry items and supplies for the field cooker itself. This is depending upon the dimensions

regards

Dave

Wheels appear to be too close to the body for this.

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Folks,

Another photo which might help identification.

I had pretty much decided to rescue the cart from the bonfire anyway but goodness knows how I am A) going to break it to my wife and B) where I'm going to put it!

She may have some suggestions..........

post-92132-0-40782100-1348295367_thumb.j

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If you cannot take it on then perhaps one of the 'living' museums would.

Bob

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I think perhaps some are overestimating the size of it - looks too small to be a limber, but more likely a cart as originally suggested, hauled by men rather than animals

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I seem to remember that Boy Scout groups had Trek Carts back before mechanised transport took their camping gear to camp for them. I wonder if it is one of those?

Gareth

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From an old Boys Own Magazine - How to make a Scout Trekcart HERE.

The article comes from THIS website where there are photographs of a modern one being built. 15th Cheltenham ( Shurdington ) Scout Group.

CGM

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Folks,

Just to close this one off, I've made a couple of phone calls and the cart is mine - I need to pick it up next time i'm in the area but it will go in the back of the pickup and it can live in the back of my GMC CCKW until after the winter while I decide what to do with it.

Its saved from the bonfire anyway!

All the best

Duncan

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Duncan,

Well done! That was the right decision no matter what it really turns out to be.

All the best,

Gary

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I think perhaps some are overestimating the size of it - looks too small to be a limber, but more likely a cart as originally suggested, hauled by men rather than animals

Lewis gun cart?

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The book you need is "Discovering Horse-Drawn Transport of the British Army" by D J Smith published by Shire Classics. Lots of line drawings of the various carts. None seem to fit but as you say it has undergone conversion.. The wheel construction looks right and the books says that the metal parts of the wheels (nave and pipe box) were made of phosphor-bronze, which presumably corroded into the distinctive green/bueu verdigris. It dowes however say that the spokes of the wheels were usually set at an angle to teh nave giving a dish effect to the wheel. It does say that on smaller and less important vehicles the spokes remained straight, so i think it fits. Wheels came in theree clases A, B and C according to the axletree arm design.

It looks as if greedy boards have been added.

There are a number of candidates if you include all the various Marks..

1. Limbered GS Wagon Mark I

2. Maltese Cart Marks I to V

3. Water Cart (tank) Marks I and II

4. Forage Cart Mark I - the closest fit.

5. limbered Tool Cart (RE) Marks I and II

The book provides a few dimensions which you might be able to use to compare with your cart.

Regards MG.

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It's not a Lewis Gun Cart or a Water Cart, Tank ...

Here's an image from a current Ebay sale ( Item number: 400325638356) ... Not sure if it could have been something like this which was described simply as a 'Governess Cart'

post-9943-0-60892100-1349283871_thumb.jp

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Thanks to all for the further responses - the cart will be safe in my hands from the end of next week.

Martin - thanks for the reference. I have ordered the book so with a bit of luck and a few measurements we may be able to narrow the identifiaction down. if this is possible, I would like to restore the cart to close to its original condition. I attend a lot of vintage military vehicle shows but few have any WW1 vehicles apart from War and Peace in Kent which does attract a hanful of magnificent WW1 vehicles.

Thanks again to all who responded

PS just a wild though,t but would a military cart regardless of type be marked anywhere with the crows foot either on the metalwork or stencilled on - I haven't looked but certainly will when I pick it up - you never know what delicate application of nitromors may uncover............

all the best

Duncan

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Good luck with the restoration Duncan - You could try looking for a date or mark on the axle. While restoring our Group's Water Cart, Tank, our Project Team found the axle was date stamped.

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There were two types of Lewis Gun cart. The early one carried two guns and ammunition and could be pulled one man. The later one most usually illustrated carried four guns and was usually pulled by two men or an animal (donkey very often). Its the smaller earlier one I am suggesting not the later one.

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As far as I can see all military wheels were of the 12 spoke variety except for the heavy type of guns e.g 6 inch and 4.7 inch guns which had 14 spokes, with tyre width between 4.5 inches and 6 inches, these wheels were very heavy weighing between 392 to 420 pounds. The example posted has 14 spokes and it looks like the tyre width is less than 4.5 inches.

John

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Well done on saving it - would love to find one similar myself!

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