1914 Star and 2 Silver Roses

[Icox67]

Hi,

I am in possession of my grandfather's 1914 Star, complete with the bronze clasp reading 5th Aug-22nd Nov 1914. According to

Army Order 361, 1919 - "1914 Star- Grant of Clasp" two small silver roses were issued with the clasp. One siver rose is in my possession, and is sewed to the dress bar for the medals.

My query - I have NEVER seen any 1914 Stars on sale with 2 silver roses (occasionally one, never 2). Does anyone know of any cases where both Silver roses have stayed together?

Was there a specific place that these were meant to be worn? (e.g one on the dress medal ribbon bar and one on the ribbon above the medal itself)?

Thanks,

Iain

[David B]

Whilst the order specifies that two roses will be issued with each medal, the order doesn't appear to state if there is any specific reason for this.

I can only assume that because the rose was not large, two were issued to make up for the loss of one of the roses.

Alternatively, the second rose may have been used on another set of medals i.e. miniatures.

[Coldstreamer]

I have a group to a POW who died - both roses and star have been sewn onto the 1914 star ribbon

I always thought 2 roses issued so that 2 sets of ribbons could be worn on diff uniforms

[Bombadier]

My grandfather's second rose is mounted as the centerpiece of a rosette made from 14 star ribbon. My grandmother wore it at old cotemptible gatherings.

Nigel

[Kitchener's Bugle]

As far as I was aware, when the ribbon bar was worn alone, recipients of the clasp to the medal wore the small silver rosette on the ribbon bar. Perhaps someone on the British Medal Forum might know the answer to why two rosettes were issued? What about the dress uniform?

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Greeting all, I posted icox67's question on the British Medal Forum - this is the reply I received:-

One was a spare. They were only ever meant to be sewn onto the ribbon worn in the ribbon bar (denoting eligibility for the clasp).

The clasp and two roses were issued separately from the medal.

They're occasionally seen on the ribbon with the medal, but only when the accompanying instructions weren't read!

Hope that this helps!.

[davidhughhill]

I think your " Bar " is a replacement as originals were sewn onto the ribbon .

Davie

[rflory]

The slide-on date bar was privately made, the originally-issued date bar was sewn on. Some men wore the slide-on bar to replace the original bar that had fallen off and was lost, while others wore it because it was easier than sewing on the original bar.

[Khaki]

I have amongst my odds an ends a typed slip of paper ( done on the reverse of an army form I think) directing the recipient of a 1914 star to wear the silver rosette on the medal ribbon pending the issue of the 'bar'.It may well be that the two rosettes were intended as one for the ribbon bar and a temporary one for the medal ribbon.

khaki

[NigelS]

I have amongst my odds an ends a typed slip of paper ( done on the reverse of an army form I think) directing the recipient of a 1914 star to wear the silver rosette on the medal ribbon pending the issue of the 'bar'.It may well be that the two rosettes were intended as one for the ribbon bar and a temporary one for the medal ribbon.

A letter in The Times of July 19th, 1919 - although its unclear whether the writer is discussing the medal ribbon or the ribbon bar - might indicate that this wasn't officially sanctioned (Churchill had first announced the rose in April of that year):

Sir, - I see in to-day’s paper the announcement of the British Medal. It is now some months since Mr. Churchill stated in the House that a silver rose was to be worn on the 1914 Star ribbon by those who fought in the first seven Divisions. This has never yet been officially authorized. Although officers and men have been seen wearing it, it is contrary to regulations, and in some cases orders have been issued that it is not to be worn. For may reasons this unexplained delay seems regrettable.

WOUNDED, SEPT., 1914 (AND SINCE UNFIT).

July 17.

A query on this is when the roses were first officially issued, as an announcement of the King's official approval of the issue didn't appear until October 20th 1919 (so, presumably weren't actually issued until some time later than this):

The King has approved of the issue of clasp to officers, warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men who have been awarded the 1914 Star and who actually served under the fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between August 5, 1914, and midnight, November 22-23, 1914.

The clasp will be in bronze and will bear the inscription '5th Aug - 22nd November, 1914.'

In undress and service uniform, when ribands are worn, the grant of the clasp will be denoted by the wearing of a small silver rose in the centre of the riband.

Which begs the question where the officers and men seen by 'WOUNDED' had got the roses they were wearing from as they must have been unofficial; the final paragraph above might indicate why two roses were issued.

Before the 1914 star medal was available, issues of 4 inch lengths of the ribbon were sanctioned, from The Times of 24th December 1917:

The issue and wearing of the Riband of the “1914 Star” form the subject of a new Army Council

Instruction. It is notified that preliminary issue of 4in of riband has been sanctioned for each

individual now serving who is entitled to the decoration. The “1914 Star” is to be considered a

war medal, and must be worn as such. The Riband will be worn with the red edge on the right –

i.e., with the red edge furthest from the left shoulder.

It strikes me that 4" would be adequate for two medal bars (far too much for just one) and consequently the 'standard' issue to each serving man for that purpose; the later issue of the two roses would then correspond to the 'standard' riband issue of two per man.

NigelS

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is the full text of the Army Order ( AO 361 ) '1914 Star ' - Grant of Clasp.

" 1. His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve the issue of a clasp to officers, warrant officers, non-commssioned officers and men who have actually been awarded the ' 1914 Star ' under Army Order 350 of 1917, and who actually served under fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between the 5th August, 1914, and midnight 22nd/23rd November, 1914.

2. The clasp will be in bronze and will bear the inscription : ' 5th Aug. - 22nd Nov. 1914 '.

3. In undress service uniform, when ribands are worn, the grant of the clasp will be denoted by the wearing of a small silver rose in the middle of the riband.

4. Officers and soldiers who were actually present on duty within range of the enemy's mobile artillery and were on the strength of, or attached to units and formations set forth in Appendix A between the above mentioned dates, will be eligible for the award.

5. An individual who served with a formation, otherwise than named in Appendix A, will only be granted the clasp on furnishing a certificate signed by an officer, warrant officer, or non-commissioned officer not below the rank of sergeant personally cognisant that the individual served on duty within the range of the enemy's mobile artillery during the period referred to in paragraph 1.

6. Two small silver roses will be issued with the clasp to each approved individual.

7. Officers commanding units and heads of departments will forward nominal rolls of troops now serving under their command entitled to the clasp, to the Secretary, War Office ( AG10 ), 27 Pilgrim Street, EC4. The rolls should be made out in duplicate in conformity with the specimen shown in Appendix B.

8. Individuals not now serving should apply on special forms ( which can be obtained on application to any head or branch post office in a town or to any post office in the country districts ), to the officer in charge of the record office of the corps in which they last served. If possible the certificate which referred to in pagragraph 5 ( and which will be found on the form ), should be first completed and signed as directed thereon. Officers in charge of records will forward all applications through the officer commanding the unit concerned, to the Secretary, War Office ( AG10 ), 27, Pligrim Street, EC4. Applications made otherwise than on the prescribed form will be ignored."

LF