T.E.Lawrence

[Ghazala]

11 hours ago, seaJane said:

IV?

From September 1922 Lawrence owned seven Brough motorcycles and he had nicknames for each of them.

 

1922. Boa, short for Boanerges (Son of Thunder) - the title Jesus gave to disciples James and John.  Nickname was George 1, which cost £150.00,  more than the price of a house at the time.

 

1924. George II.

 

1925.  George III

 

1926.  George IV   (XX7646)

 

1927.  George V  (RK4907)

 

1929.  George VI  (UL656)

 

1932.  George VII  GW2275).  This motor cycle has been in the sole ownership of Mr John Weebly of Ringwood for the past 37 years.

 

George VIII was being built prior to Lawrence's  death.   It was never delivered.

 

[Stoppage Drill]

I hate to say it, but the dressed- up rider in the OP looks awfy like D*n Sn*w

[David Filsell]

Deleted!

Edited 14 May , 2017 by David Filsell

[seaJane]

10 hours ago, Ghazala said:

From September 1922 Lawrence owned seven Brough motorcycles and he had nicknames for each of them.

 

Thank you for the explanation!

[michaeldr]

TEL as viewed by Bertha Spafford Vesta

a quote from her book 'Our Jerusalem'

[seen here https://ia600302.us.archive.org/35/items/ourjersalem000091mbp/ourjersalem000091mbp.pdf ]

 

 

One morning Colonel Lawrence called on Mother. Mother was busy at the moment, and asked me to go up and speak to him. We had not heard much about Colonel Lawrence at that time. The war in Arabia was remote from Palestine, with the Turko-German armies between, and Lawrence's exploits had been kept a profound secret. A day or two before this I was returning from the hospital with my husband and we noticed a Bedouin coming down the steps from Fast's Hotel. Frederick said: 
"Do you see that Bedouin?" 
"Yes. Why?" 
"He is not a Bedouin at all but an Englishman who has been among the Sherifian troops." 

 

I thought this quite impossible, for I had never seen a European wear the Arab dress with such ease. The correct wearing of the long robe, the seamless abayah, which an Arab gathers round himself making certain folds, is difficult for a foreigner to acquire, and this, to the accustomed eye, gives him away. The Bedouin headdress, the kaffiyeh and agal, is hard to manage for a non-Bedouin, and there is an unspoken language which the Bedouin understands in the manner in which the kaffiyeh is worn. All these mannerisms were perfect in the person whom Frederick told me was an Englishman and whose name was Colonel Lawrence. 

 

It may be that Colonel Lawrence was not pleased that Mother delayed receiving him. At all events he was curt and silent during the visit. I said something about the Bedouins, for we were on very friendly terms with the Bedouins east of the Jordan. (Had I not been initiated into the Adwan tribe as a child?) Colonel Lawrence turned his back as soon as I mentioned the word "Bedouin." I thought him rude and did not try again to create conversation. Mother soon ar rived, and I left the room. 

 

The next time I met Colonel Lawrence I found myself sitting next to him at dinner at the house of Colonel Storrs. I turned to my neighbor on the other side and conversed with him all through dinner. As I left the table with the other ladies, Colonel Lawrence turned to me and said: "We re quits," and smiled in his most engaging manner. When the men of the party joined us in the drawing room to listen to a recital of music Colonel Storrs had arranged for the entertainment of his guests, Colonel Lawrence walked straight over to the broad window sill where I was sitting. We spent the rest of the evening together, and in the intervals between music he told me about his exciting life in the most natural manner, as though it were nothing at all to lead a raid and blow up Turkish bridges, and about Auda Abu Tayi, that incredible man who was later so useful to Colonel Lawrence. At first Colonel Lawrence knew that Auda was as much a German instrument as he was a British, and Colonel Lawrence told him in feigned confidence exactly what he wanted the Germans to know. It was not until one morning when he heard something being smashed outside his tent and raised the flap to see what was going on, that he realized that Auda had really chosen his master. Auda was smashing something with a stone, and to Colonel Lawrence s question his only answer was "Don't you trust me? Am I not true to you?" Colonel Lawrence assured him that of course he trusted him, he had never doubted him. "But what are you doing?" Auda, still with his back to Colonel Lawrence and still grinding, said, "Wallah, I can't eat English food with German teeth." "So," said Colonel Lawrence, "I had to fly Auda to Egypt and get him a new set of teeth." 

 

We saw Colonel Lawrence often after this. He was shy and reserved, and kept away from social gatherings and parties. He had suffered from conjunctivitis and his eyes were weak. One had to get behind his reserve really to know and appreciate his greatness. He rarely spoke about his achievements. We had one topic to which we could always revert in conversation, Gertrude Bell. We both admired her archaeological work, her unusual intellect, her accomplishments, and her writings.  

[notimetoulouse]

I've just bumped into this topic by accident. I too have found two distinct sides to Lawrence.

As schoolboy my English teacher harangued me for my  adherence to Dylan Thomas ("you are wasting your time, anyone with a bottle of whiskey and a pen could do this - Find Seven Pillars, and see how English should be written. Lawrence is a master, he had only one rule for writing - write as if you had the last pen and the last bottle of ink in the world").

 

I read it as a twelve year old and now, at 70 ish, I have  all of his associated works (not Crusader Castles), most of the more important books about him, (Mienertzhagens Diary Ruse even Lockmans 'Scattered Tracks", so rare it's going for £900+ on Amazon!). I'm more than happy to dig into anything I have if it will help anyone here.

It's obvious from this topic that TEL still has the capacity to generate strong feelings. I'm surprised at no mention of his Tank Corps bodyguard John Bruce, of his alleged 'darker side, of the possible links to the intelligence community after the wars end (Schneider Trophy anyone?), no mention of Aldington even.

Lawrence was a multi faceted jewel who lived a complex life after the war, a life that has been only lightly probed.

In 1975 my wife and I visited Clouds Hill when it was still being looked after by the charming Pat and Joyce Knowles. I was a soldier and in uniform and Pat and I hit it off immediately. Joyce and my wife walked our dog on the heath whilst for two hours Pat and I spoke about the Lawrence he knew.

Some of the things he told me were things I'd never come into contact with, from his belief of who had stolen the missing sleeping bag, through TEL having tea with Montgomery upstairs (and being upbraided about the length of his hair), and an absolutely unique take on his later life and death which would roll a hand grenade into many Lawrence forums.

Having now seen first hand what emotions can be stirred by TEL, I post only to add info, however slight.

[Ghazala]

Akaba.   By dawn on the sixth of July 1917, only three hundred Turks stood between the Arab army and the sea.   All night, from their entrenched position at the mouth of Wadi Itm, the Turks had repulsed one call after another on them to surrender. But as daylight broke, with Arab tempers shortening, the Turks gave in.   "Then we raced through a driving sandstorm down to Akaba, four miles further,” wrote Lawrence, “and splashed into the sea on July the sixth, just two months after our setting out from Wejh.”  
Thus, it was one hundred years ago today that Lawrence took his iconic photograph of the Arabs making their triumphal entry into Akaba.   His life would never be the same again.

 

[michaeldr]

Ghazala,

 

Many thanks for that reminder

 

All the best

Michael

[seaJane]

 

I hope that's the right link - I can't actually see it through the firewall ... 

[Ghazala]

On 05/07/2017 at 16:33, notimetoulouse said:

 

Lawrence - a life that has been only lightly probed.

I do not agree with that Toulouse.  Few men of the last century, and perhaps not many more in history, have commanded such world-wide interest.  Much was published about him in his lifetime, but there has been a steady flow of books and articles about the man and his work since his death.  Jeremy Wilson's Lawrence of Arabia - an authorised biography took him 15 years to write and covers all aspects of Lawrence's life.

How wonderful that you met Pat and Joyce Knowles.  A marvellous couple that now lie close to TEL at his graveside in Moreton.  The stolen sleeping bag was returned to Clouds Hill ten years after it was taken, in the post from Belgium.  It enclosed a note in broken English apologising for taking it.

 

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Your right I don't think we will ever loose the TEL fever.

 

My talks with Roy Moore Ex Camel Corps, often commented that the reason people would contact him was not the ICC, but there association to TEL.

 

Most of his talks and writings were forced to centre on TEL and not the main work the Camel Corps did in the war?

 

Such is life.

 

S.B

[Ghazala]

Ah, those camels......

 

The first time the camels heard the bagpipes they stampeded.  Highland regiments and camels did not get on.

 

The names of Lawrence's camels.....

 

1.   Ghazala.   Sold to Lawrence by Nasri.  It gave Lawrence much prestige amongst the arabs.

 

2.   Wodkeila

 

3.   Baha.   Baha had been shot in the throat and the noise it made gave it this name.

 

4.   Naaaa.   Shot at Aba-al-Nissan.

 

5.   Obeyd.   Spare camel.

 

6.   Rima. 

 

[Ghazala]

14 July 1917 

In a letter from Sir Reginald Wingate, Lawrence learns that he has been recommended for the Victoria Cross.

“The Chief of the Imperial General Staff has requested me to convey his congratulations on your recent exploit and I do so with the liveliest satisfaction. It was a very gallant and successful adventure which it has been my pleasant duty to bring to the notice of the higher authority for special recognition and I sincerely trust this letter will not be long delayed.

“I hope you are taking a rest and making up some of the arrears of sleep which you must be badly in need of.”

(Letter from Sir Reginald Wingate to Lawrence, 14 July 1917, National Archives, FO 882/7.)

 

In Wingate’s letter recommending Lawrence for the VC, he remarks: 

“The fact, of which he was well aware, that the Turks had put a reward of £5,000 on his head considerably enhances the gallantry of his exploit. He was moving among a highly venal population, of whom some at least were definitely hostile. In spite of this, he seized every opportunity of damaging the railway, interviewing tribesmen and obtaining information regarding the country and its inhabitants and finally directed successful operation in Ma’an region, the result of which was that 700 Turks were destroyed and 600 captured. I strongly recommend him for an immediate award of the Victoria Cross, and submit this recommendation is amply justified by his skill, pluck and endurance.”

(Letter from Sir Reginald Wingate to Sir William Robertson, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, 14 July 1917, L/PS/11/124.)

[Ghazala]

4 August 1917

In Akaba, Lawrence meets with Nasir, and possibly it is today that Nasir presents him with the silver-gilt dagger that he will wear until his gold dagger arrives from Mecca (it “was a heavy thing and I discarded it with pleasure for the gold one which had been made small by my order and the gold one I wore for the rest of the war, except when it was being repaired or rebelted,” he will write to Lionel Curtis in later years). 

Nasir also sells Lawrence his famed camel, Ghazala. 

Lawrence rides to Guweira to see Auda, arriving in the dawn.

(Chapter LVII, Seven Pillars of Wisdom, Penguin paperback edition. Letter to Lionel Curtis written on 22 February 1929, reproduced from T. E. Lawrence: His Arab Clothing and Daggers, by Joe Berton, T. E. Lawrence Society Journal Vol. XXIV, No. 1.)

In 1921, Lawrence will leave the silver-gilt dagger with Lady Kathleen Scott, widow of the Scott of the Antarctic, after she sculpts him wearing his Arab robes. It will remain in the possession of her family for nearly 100 years, before being sold to an overseas buyer at Christie's in 2015. After being made subject to an export ban, it will be bought by the National Army Museum in London, where it is now on display.

In 1923, Lawrence will sell the gold dagger to Lionel Curtis for £125 to fund repairs to Clouds Hill. Lionel Curtis will later present it to All Souls College, Oxford.

[mandy hall]

Lawrence's robe's at The Ashmoleam Museum in Oxford seen this afternoon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ghazala]

Wow.  Thanks Mandy.  The last tiime I saw that robe was at a private viewing where it lay on a table in the Asmoleon.  BBC4 tonight at 10 pm there is a documentary on TEL by Rory Stewart.

[Frank_East]

Looking forward to it but missed the programme on Gertrude Bell which has a transmission slot of 2100 to 2230.

 

The Legacy of Lawrence of Arabia.follows.....according to the DT starts at 2230  and is a repeat.  

[Felix C]

I always wondered how many trains or culverts the units he commanded or advised destroyed vs. those of other BCE officers who were on the same type of duty. 

[Biggles]

On 17/08/2012 at 20:17, Stanley_C_Jenkins said:

Despite the wealth of information about T.E.Lawrence, it suddenly struck me that I did not know which regiment or corps he served with. The Oxford DNB says that he was "a subaltern attached to the military intelligence department of the Egyptian expeditionary force", but does that mean that he was in the Intelligence Corps? And what was his final army rank - was he a full colonel?

LAWRENCE,Captain (later Colonel) Thomas Edward DSO BA (1888-1935).  Born 16 August 1888 at Tremadoc in Caernarvonshire.  Attended Oxford High School and Jesus College Oxford.  As Lieutenant in November 1914, Junior Staff Officer, Intelligence Section, GHQ Cairo.  Military Adviser to Emir Feisal.

 

Kind regards,

Caleb

[michaeldr]

The revolver of Ashraf Bey, which was given by TEL to Capt. Lionel Grey, has been donated to the NAM

for details and photograph, see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/18/lawrence-of-arabias-revolver-is-donated-to-national-army-museum

[2ndCMR]

There is some interesting information on T.E. Lawrence's demise in a little book called "Ten Dorset Mysteries".

Edited 18 February , 2018 by 2ndCMR

[David Filsell]

Without any personal comment, pro or con, I commend to the fevered Lawrencians, "Behind the Lawrence Legend" by Philip Walker which provides an interesting perspective on (and I paraphrase) "the unsung efforts of a forgotten band of fellow officers" who "fell through the cracks of history" and "provide a remarkable and fresh perspective on Lawrence and the Arab Revolt". 

[2ndCMR]

On 2/18/2018 at 10:46, michaeldr said:

The revolver of Ashraf Bey, which was given by TEL to Capt. Lionel Grey, has been donated to the NAM

for details and photograph, see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/18/lawrence-of-arabias-revolver-is-donated-to-national-army-museum

Quote

The label, in Gray’s handwriting, explains the origin of the gun and adds: “Ashraf Bey is known to have been responsible for the death of some 2,000 Armenians and this revolver was taken from his person”.

Lawrence, who had interrogated Bey after his capture, passed on the information to Gray, implicating the Turkish officer the infamous massacre of Armenians in 1915, claiming that Bey had personally used the revolver to execute a number of captives.  

Quote

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?   [Adolf Hitler, 22 August 1939 ]

 

Edited 25 February , 2018 by 2ndCMR

[pudsey63]

Currently reading Bray’s ‘Shifting Sands’; a fascinating alternative view of Lawrence by a contemporary. 

[MaureenE]

6 hours ago, pudsey63 said:

Currently reading Bray’s ‘Shifting Sands’; a fascinating alternative view of Lawrence by a contemporary. 

Found that this is available online:

Shifting Sands by  Major N N E Bray ( Norman Napier Evelyn). 1934. Archive.org.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.77401/page/n5/mode/2up

 

I have only read the first few chapters, but I felt I was reading an adventure thriller.

 

Cheers

Maureen