T.E.Lawrence

[Doctord84]

I've just started on "Empire of the Sand: How Britain made the Middle East" by Walter Reid. I've so far resisted having a sneaky look at his conclusions, but reading between the lines of his intro he's clearly taking issue with the traditional view that the Allied powers deliberately put one over on the Arabs, but feels rather that the situation was much more complex than that. Only a few chapters in at present;it's certainly very readable, but would be interested in others' opinions on both the book and Lawrence. He spent some time at an RAF station at Bridlington, East Yorks, so I've got a local interest - he also ties in with my Yeomanry research, as some of the Camel Corps guys came from the ERY and met Lawrence. One view might be that his skills as a guerrilla leader and a writer were balanced by some political naivety perhaps?

[David Filsell]

Bushfighter
If yor comment was a result of my comments, while perhaps justified, was and remains based upon what I have read. My scepticism does not trigger the commitment required to write on TEL I fear.
Regards
David

[bushfighter]

David

Greetings

Amongst my imperfections, which are many, is an inability to understand Members who prefer to continually post comments instead of marshaling an account or argument for publication.

For example I've just spent a couple of secluded weeks researching and formulating my own opinions on DUNSTERFORCE, which will appear on the internet if anyone is interested in them.

If more Members did this then the quality of information, which from time to time we all seek, would improve dramatically on this forum, to our mutual benefit.

So - why not have a go at understanding TEL better by researching and writing about him? I would certainly be interested in reading your argued conclusions.

Harry

[Ghazala]

David

David

Greetings

Why not have a go at understanding TEL better by researching and writing about him? I would certainly be interested in reading your argued conclusions.

Harry

Well put Bushfighter. Come on David play up and play the game!

[yellow]

Cairo Intelligence Department - Badged as a staff officer - Special Duties - Special List and sometimes described when gazetted for decorations as 'General List'.

Lawrence cared little for officer uniform and British Army rank according to his writings in the Seven Pillars Of Wisdom.

[Don]

have just read read an interesting article named” Hell in the Holy land by Lowell Thomas and Kenneth Brown Collings” The postscript by Lowell Thomas reads”....

To this day, everywhere I go I am asked, “Why did Lawrence behave so strangely after the War” People still want to know why he declined knighthood, dodged his opportunity to become a General in the British army, asked not to be put up for a Victoria Cross, and went to into the RAS as a private under as assumed name".

The Best answer I can give is this: "Lawrence of Arabia was an archaeologist, an oriental scholar, a poet and philosopher. A great crisis transformed him into a military man. Then he found himself a national hero. But he never wanted such fame. After the War his one desire was to go back to his former obscurity and scholastic life. In the middle ages he probably would have become a Monk in a monastery. In the our day he did what he considered the next best thing: He became Aircraftsman T.E. Shaw.

His death was a tragedy for the British Empire. For I believe that in the years to come he would have played the role of an elder states-man, one who to whom politicians and statesmen could turn for unprejudiced advice, for he was the wisest and most remarkable human being I ever knew. Thinking of him only as the young Lawrence of Arabia, and thinking of the ominous seethings of Mohammedan revolt in and around the Holy Land today. I wonder where civilization is to look for his like, and Allenby’s, if-or when the hour of need arrives."

Lowell Thomas

This sums up Lawrence perfectly for me

Gerry

[David Filsell]

"So - why not have a go at understanding TEL better by researching and writing about him? I would certainly be interested in reading your argued conclusions."

I have tried all the obvious books and a few others - the letters, The Arab view, even relative rarities like 'Richard Aldington and Lawrence of Arabia' (Fred Crawford Southern Illinois University Press, undated).

I gave an honest opinion, valid on the forum I consider, It was not a full frontal attack on the man, for whom I am neither inclined or able to muster any further enthusiasm to study.

Not least the primary sources seem to have been exhausted. All that remains is to re-evaluate others arguments yet again and come up with conclusions which yay or nay the man. I have done my time with TEL and as the teenagers say simply cannot be arsed to do any more and I still am simply not sure about the man - even with all that reading. That's all.

Harry

[michaeldr]

I am neither inclined or able to muster any further enthusiasm to study.... .... ....

I have done my time with TEL and as the teenagers say simply cannot be arsed to do any more.... .... ....

Then why all the repetition? eg: post 14 et al

I find this very puzzling

[David Filsell]

You are quite right. My last (very last)post was merely in reply to Bushfighter. I shall therefore go and hide in my tent of horsehair and eat grass. Clearly the legend is bigger than the topic.

[michaeldr]

That the legend is big is beyond dispute

Is it too big? Perhaps.

Does it get in the way of a rational discussion? It seems to for some people, which is a great pity.

However valid your view point may be, by using none specific phrases such as “there are just some things” or “apples and pears” without any clarification as to exactly what it is you are talking about, does not help anyone to understand your position.

Hence my puzzlement.

[David Filsell]

True. But since I have crept out of purdah only to seem polite, you must remain puzzled by my overall view of the man and his actions you must remain puzzled

I've simply nowt else to add to my opinion that will naysay my naysayers. Sorry, but stumps are now definitely drawn.

[bushfighter]

TEL had, in my humble opinion, a pretty unique ability to get on with all social classes in a totally different ethnic community that spoke a completely different language.

The Regular Army tended to sniff at that - even in my time an officer who spoke a foreign language was "a bit suspect" - rugger was the thing!

Therefore please never judge TEL by his military standing and abilities, neither of which were pronounced.

Judge him by his ability to persuade others from a widely different background to do military things.

But lads and lasses, has anything changed when I hear loutish Britishers referring to other ethnic groups as RAGHEADS.

If TEL was alive today he would still be regarded as "suspect" by that massive herd of both military people and civilians who are afraid or incapable of entering and absorbing alien cultures.

Harry

[Wander00]

When I was a teenager my Dad showed me carbon copy of a report written by my Uncle Major (I think) Ernest Cartwright to Gen Allenby about the activities of Col Lawrence. Sadly by the time my parents had died, the paper had disappeared. Also with the report was my uncle's Arab headdress, and his passport with most of the details obliterated in Indian ink and signed and stamped "Officially Expunged". Perhaps he was in some branch of Military Intelligence. I have never come across my uncle's name in any reading about Lawrence or the desert war; I wonder if anyone else has

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I show three officers but as Captains either named Ernest or E Cartwright with the British Army?

Medal card of Cartwright, E R Corps Regiment No Rank Attached Head Quarters Royal Engineers Temporary Captain

and

Cartwright, Ernest George Frederick Corps Regiment No Rank 6th London Regiment Second Lieutenant 6th London Regiment Captain

and

Cartwright, Ernest Atherton Corps Regiment No Rank Lancashire Fusiliers attached Loyal North Lancashire Regiment Captain

But who your relation is one of these is unknown?

S.B

[Ghazala]

When I was a teenager my Dad showed me carbon copy of a report written by my Uncle Major (I think) Ernest Cartwright to Gen Allenby about the activities of Col Lawrence. Sadly by the time my parents had died, the paper had disappeared. Also with the report was my uncle's Arab headdress, and his passport with most of the details obliterated in Indian ink and signed and stamped "Officially Expunged". Perhaps he was in some branch of Military Intelligence. I have never come across my uncle's name in any reading about Lawrence or the desert war; I wonder if anyone else has

There is a mountain of information on TEL. I have had a search through my own papers looking for your Uncle's name but did not find him. I am over at TEL's former home, Clouds Hill, on Saturday. I will ask our people there to check for you.

[Wander00]

Thanks Guys - have found the 1942 marriage to my aunt - he was Ernest A Cartwright. Maybe that helps. Will now search the LG

[Wander00]

Just looked on Forces war Records - only one E A Cartwright shown as Temp Lt General Service Corps. My suspicion is that my guy was engaged on intelligence work and does not figure in the usual records - the document I saw as a youngster was in my memory signed as a Major, and maybe even Town Major

[SiegeGunner]

A 'Town Major' did not necessarily hold the rank of Major, though.

[Moonraker]

"Lawrence of Arabia was not gay but in fact had a secret female love, according to a new book."

article

Moonraker

[bushfighter]

BULLET HELPS REVIVE LAWRENCE OF ARABIA'S REPUTATION

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/bullet-helps-revive-lawrence-arabias-reputation-180958662/?utm_source=facebook.com&no-ist

[trajan]

BULLET HELPS REVIVE LAWRENCE OF ARABIA'S REPUTATION

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/bullet-helps-revive-lawrence-arabias-reputation-180958662/?utm_source=facebook.com&no-ist

Context is everything... I would want to see the final report before giving credence to the claim.

[seaforth78]

TEL had, in my humble opinion, a pretty unique ability to get on with all social classes in a totally different ethnic community that spoke a completely different language.

If TEL was alive today he would still be regarded as "suspect" by that massive herd of both military people and civilians who are afraid or incapable of entering and absorbing alien cultures.

Harry

Well said!

[Ghazala]

"Lawrence of Arabia was not gay but in fact had a secret female love, according to a new book."

article

Moonraker

TEL had a close friendship with the Syrian-Lebanese teacher, Miss Farida el Akle (1882-1976), who taught him Arabic. He first visited the American Mission School for Girls in Jubail north of Beirut on his first trip to the Middle East in 1909, returning there to undertake, for a period of two months, the only formal course of tuition in Arabic he ever had. Farida was his teacher, and he was also entertained by the headmistress Miss Holmes and the American teacher Mrs Rieder. Thereafter, Lawrence and Farida became friends for life. He visited her whenever he could get to the Beirut area on his subsequent archaeological expeditions, and they corresponded irregularly but affectionately both before and after his war service.

Farida herself, who was a Christian, went on to become a prominent and highly respected figure in national educational circles, and she represented Syrian Protestant women at regional conferences as well as in the International Women’s Conference in Paris in 1926.

Farida, who remained unmarried throughout her long life, always cherished her platonic relationship with Lawrence, who was for her not a war hero but a special, kind, intelligent and helpful friend and adviser.

It is even possible that Farida was the enigmatic dedicatee of ‘Seven Pillars of Wisdom’. It is generally assumed that ‘S.A.’ was Lawrence’s youthful companion Selim Ahmad (Dahoum). Dahoum figures several times in Lawrence’s correspondence with Farida. He wrote, while drafting the book: “I liked a particular Arab very much, and I thought that freedom for the race would be an acceptable present”. He also jotted down a note in 1919 – “(?)A”) I wrought for him a freedom to lighten his sad eyes: but he died waiting for me” - (Wilson, pp 544, 672-4). Nevertheless, Dahoum was of Hittite ancestry rather than Arab, a boy who personally cared little for the national destiny; and Robert Graves argued that ‘S.A.’ represented “Son Altesse”, a term by which a crusader might have addressed a lady. It is possible that the significance of ‘S.A.’ for Lawrence was more complex than a simple identification with one person or another and that Farida formed part of that secret construction.

[trajan]

... Nevertheless, Dahoum was of Hittite ancestry ...

Please explain! I teach my students and tour groups that the 'Hittites' disappear from the historical record around 1150 BC, while the 'Neo-Hittites' of TEL's Karchemish, are out of the loop after the Assyrian conquests of the 8-7th century BC... Happy to be corrected...

[Ghazala]

I am sure your knowledge is superior to mine Trajan. I quote from my mass of papers on TEL in which I cannot always identify the source. There is a letter that TEL wrote to Farida el Akle, saying he very much regrets she should have called his boy an ''Aneyza', since he is "Hittite from Carchemish". A letter written in Arabic characters.

The 'Aneyza' to which Lawrence refers here is an Arab-Bedou tribe, which used to roam the desert from the north of the Arab peninsula to the north of Syria, as opposed to the ancient civilisation of the Hittites (c1500 BC) whose site at Carchemish Lawrence was excavating.