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Seadog

WW1 Military Cross ebay

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Seadog

Not off topic at all Martin and it would be good for you to know who owns the family medals now even if perhaps they have no intention of parting with them.

Regards

Norman

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Lancashire Fusilier

Martin,

As Norman has said, not at all off topic, and I hope that you are soon able to trace the medals and return them to your family.

A wonderful M.C. grouping.

There is also a website http://www.lostmedalsaustralia.com which helps trace items for those wishing to track down lost family awards and medals.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

Actually, the metal in the medal isn't rare, rather plain and commonplace. The prices - what ever your opinion (and mine is that mid range for MC's in good groups is close to 1400-1500 pounds, Dixon's is well known to be one of the priceier dealers around) are totally subjective. In fact what you are valuing is the price of a good story.

Scott,

Here is 9,995 pounds worth of rather plain and commonplace metal with a good story!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-RFC-RAF-GALLANTRY-MEDAL-GROUP-AND-LOGBOOK-GROUP-TO-ACE-/110936588880?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item19d4560250

Regards,

LF

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scottmarchand

LF, I agree , great story and smack in the middle of the sort of thing I collect and I'd love to own it but not unless some great stroke of good fortune hits could I ever afford that. The price is very optimisitic and I know of two comparable groups that have sat unsold for 2 years at less than half that price. I fully acknowledged earleir that prices vary widely but for very specific reasons, RFC awards being one of them, great premium is placed on them - but again the exceptional high's do not define a market. If one is not picky about the story then you'd run out of money before you'd run out of MC groups to purchase. However, there were about 900 MC's to the RFC and aviation in general is highly collectable. Anyone is free to ask whatever they want for something just as anyone is free to not like the price and to not purchase. I have collected for many years and have no desire to pay more than I have to for anything. There is always an 'ouch' point and for the most part it has been my experience that other opportunies will always come around. I enjoy the objects and their history - it is nice they have some monetary worth, but that's not the root of my interest.

My remarks in no way diminish or denergarte anyones service, but that is the objective reality, one only has to look at the cost of replacment medals from the Mint etc. look at the spot price for silver -sure I agree teh MC is a lovely medal, but it is mass produced. More jewellry that was custom hand crafted goes into the scrap pot every day than there have ever been medals melted down, these often involved as much if not more skill to construct. These things we are debating right now are merely tokens and symbols. I know plenty of collectors who shun medals because they were never 'in the heat of it' prefering equipmetn and clothing that 'was there'. I have known hundreds of WW 2 veterans from all branches and countries I can can tell straight up not everyone 'loved' their service, feel any great attachment to medals or souveniers. Certainly many do and wear them with pride and are happy to regale anyone who will listen with tales of their exploits, many were traumatized and would much rather it never happend, there is a wide spectrum of perspective and experience in the grand group of military veterans. All one has to do is look at how many WW 1 and 2 medals turn up from dressers and cupboards still in their mailing boxes - never worn, mounted etc., let alone on the market. I'm sure the vast majority of families with relatives killed would much rather have the person than the medals - I know my family certainly did. It is too easy to generalize and get sentimental about things for which there is no living memory anymore.

Here is a quopte from a recently retired US army Msgt. I know with repsect to a conversation about selling a Victoria Crosses - many people posting were aghast at the idea of selling medals and affronted by the 'ghouls' who want to collect medals they didn't earn.

person A: Am I the only one who finds the sale of medals distasteful ?

icon_cry.gif

Person B: No you are not.

Jeff spitfire.gif

Person C: The guy's dead and gone, and you could look at this as his last gift to his family. If I could, I'd sell all my medals for a bunch of money I would too. I can't even buy an RC and a moon pie with all the crap the Army gave me. If my family could pay for my niece's and nephew's college with my medals after I die by selling them, more power to em. It's a bit of brass and some ribbon. If someone wants to pay a bunch of money for them, more power to them. They certainly don't do me or anyone else any good. Mind, I threw all my military crap in the Atchafalaya Basin when I got out. I'd have to ask the Govt to send me new ones so I could sell them icon_razz.gif

Person B: Sorry you felt/feel that way about what you earned.

Person C: Why? I, the men I served with, and the people I helped, know what I did. That's all I ever really cared about. The medals are just for show, you know. If the only pride I can find is in some medals the Army had to give me so other people could see I did something, I'm probably missing the point of doing what I did to earn them in the first place. If they could be used for some greater purpose than to remind my sister's kids that their uncle was mildly insane as a kid, why, all the better. I'm sure they would look good on the wall in an "I love me," display. But honestly, that was never my bag. icon_wink.gif I'm glad I served. I got to help people sometimes. That's all that really matters.

Enjoy your medals and their story, you are not the first and won't be the last.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Scott,

Many thanks for the reply and the clarification, which is appreciated.

I certainly respect your views on medals and medal pricing.

Regards,

LF

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Seadog

LF, that is a remarkable set and it would be good if it ended up somewhere on view to the public. I would have thought that the best way to sell this set was through one of the big auction houses specializing in such artifacts so that it can be publicized and marketed it in the manner it deserves. I suppose however that the seller and buyer are going to save 15-20% premium through ebay.

Regards

Norman

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Majoco

Thanks for your encouraging replies to my request for info on Lt I W Smith MC R/E. I have searched back through the forums and found a couple of entries from Andy "barrowford1914" and I believe he was the original holder of the medals. (I lost of good deal of archived emails and info in a hard drive crash and now trying to warm up the trail!) Andy could have sold the medals to "MC 27thBN" in Australia but he doesn't respond to emails.

Thanks again for your replies. - Martin

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ghchurcher

Hi LF,

You are of course entitled to your own opinion and to a degree I can see your perspective on this, however, if you were to discuss this with any medal dealer or WW1 collector I don't think that you would find one who would agree with your description of the GV M.C. as a rare award, and don't take my word for this, just ask a few!!

I hope that you can see this from another perspective, rather than comparing this to the number of men in total who served during WW1, surely you should compare this to the number of officers and warrant officers who were eligible for this award--which you will find is a much smaller total!! Any ideas how many? Probably circa 10% of the total who served.

Regards, Robert

Yup Robert, I have to agree - the matter of what is "rare", "very rare" or "scarce" etc etc is a common matter for debate among medal collectors, and there are regular threads on the subject on collectors forums. I have over 50 MCs in my collection and consider the award to be a "common" award as far as decorations/medals are concerned. You can of course argue that 37,000 odd awards out of an army of 10M in WW1 is a fairly small percentage - equally however a common award such as the MC might be rare to a particular unit, or for a particular battle, or indeed unique to a unit for a battle !. All named medals are of course unique to that man !! In medal terms I use >10 as being very rare, >50 rare and >250 scarce, 5000+ common and 50,000+ very common ! Its all very subjective of course, but good fun !!

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ghchurcher

Here is another example from my Collection of a Military Cross grouping in ' miniature ' as worn with Mess Dress or civilian Formal Dress.

Miniature medals are one half size of the full size medals.

LF

This is a lovely miniature MC group - would be great to have the full size ones of course, and to know who they were awarded to. Most likely an Indian Army / Service unit, but could be Hampshires or perhaps Tanks.....now that would be exciting ! Pricing is always difficult as there are so many factors to consider, but generally speaking a Birthday/New years Honours, no citation, non casualty WW1 MC group to the RA/RE/ASC/RAMC starts at circa £1000 and can rise to..... well al lot, but generally no more than cica £3,500 for an"in-demand" unit. If the above full size group as a WW1 Tanks MC, with Tanks GSMs etc etc I would happily give you the upper limit :hypocrite::lol:

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Lancashire Fusilier

Geoffrey,

Many thanks for the comments, and I am pleased you liked the miniature set.

I am currently trying to indentify the recipient of the miniature MC grouping, and the key seems to be the combination of the awarding of the Military Cross and the award of the N.W. Persia Clasp, which apparently did not happen very often! and that should greatly narrow down the list of possible recipients.

Any help or suggestions any members may have as to the recipient of this grouping, will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

LF

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Philip Wilson

LF.

Your miniature MC group is likely to be Indian Army given the combination of clasps Afghanistan NWF 1919 and Waziristan 1921-24 on the India GSM and N.W.Persia on the GSM. I cannot make out the clasp on the India GSM 1936-39 – it’s either North West Frontier 1936-37 or that for 1937-39.

This combination of clasps leads me to conclude that in all probability it’s Indian Army. To reverse attribute this group you need to find an Army List for early 1920 and list every officer with an MC in those Regiments present that qualified for the North West Persia clasp. See list of Regiments extracted from British Battles and Medals which qualified for the North West Persia clasp.

post-48147-0-48027000-1345224851_thumb.j

Having got your list of names/Regiments/ Units - then cross reference them to see which of these served in Afghanistan 1919 and Waziristan 1921-24. British Battles and Medals lists the Regiments/Units present for these clasps. Likewise you can find a list of the major units involved in the Third Afghan War 1919 in Brian Robson’s book Crisis on the Frontier - The Third Afghan War and the Campaign in Waziristaan 1919-20.

Others might approach this differently by checking the North West Persia clasp roll pulling out the names of all the officers then cross referencing them back to the Army List to see who had the MC etc. Alternatively you could pose the question on the British Medal Forum as to whether anybody recalls seeing the full size group being offered for sale.

When it comes to reverse attribution of miniature medals there are no short cuts. Unless the miniature group contains an unusual combination of medals and awards then they cannot be easily reverse attributed.

Philip (OMRS 943)

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Lancashire Fusilier

Phillip,

Many thanks for the excellent information.

As you say, probably no easy way of finding the recipient other than by research, a process of elimination and some good luck.

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier

LF.

Your miniature MC group is likely to be Indian Army given the combination of clasps Afghanistan NWF 1919 and Waziristan 1921-24 on the India GSM and N.W.Persia on the GSM. I cannot make out the clasp on the India GSM 1936-39 – it’s either North West Frontier 1936-37 or that for 1937-39.

Philip (OMRS 943)

Philip,

The Clasps are as follows :-

India General Service Medal - Waziristan 1921-24 and Afghanistan N.W.F. 1919 Clasps.

General Service Medal ( 1918 ) - N.W. Persia Clasp.

India General Service Medal 1936-39 - North West Frontier 1936-37 Clasp.

Regards,

LF

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Seadog

Excellent posts and very interesting. Although I do not collect medals I support all those that do especially those of you who undertake research into the recipient and by doing so add immensely to the interest. I know a guy who has an extremely interesting collection of medals with a local connection and which are very well researched and I am fascinated to see some of his efforts. I do wish that there was some way for collectors like him to display their medals to the public as I am sure that people will be as interested as I am to see them. By the sound of the posts made here there are many such collections out there which just cry out to be seen.

Regards

Norman

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ghchurcher

Of course a further complication is that officers were often attached to other units from their parent regiment. There is nothing to say that the MC was not for Waziristan so quite difficult to say where to start. The Persia is probably the smallest medal roll so in a game of chance I would start with that roll which is available on Ancestry for each unit. Some small units present were not listed on the above list. good luck !

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Philip Wilson

Of course a further complication is that officers were often attached to other units from their parent regiment. There is nothing to say that the MC was not for Waziristan so quite difficult to say where to start. The Persia is probably the smallest medal roll so in a game of chance I would start with that roll which is available on Ancestry for each unit. Some small units present were not listed on the above list. good luck !

I agree Indian Army Officers did not always stay with their parent Regiment. NW Persia is the best place to start in terms of medal rolls. In the scheme of things it's like looking for a needle in a hay stack. Now if it was a DSO, MC miniature group with a combination of medals and foriegn awards then you might narrow it down to one or more officers. Reverse attribution is great when all the bits of the jigsaw puzzle fit in place. Then years later the full size group turns up to prove your surmise was right.

Miniatures are good space fillers in any collection and when they come with proven provenance and supporting documentation the subsequent research can be equally rewarding as their full size counterparts.

Military Crosses turn up on ebay either as singletons or in groups - most are okay but occassionally they turn out to be copies. Spotting the fake MC requires a keen eye. All are fractionally smaller and rather thinner than the original, the ribbon bar is narrower, the cyphers and crowns are not well finished etc.

Philip (OMRS 943)

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R TURNER

This topic may have finished, but i would like to add my story. I purchase an engraved MC at auction for £500 in June this year. I wanted to research it and now have written a 40 page biography on him, everything from his service papers, to his picture and a report on a football match he play in 1913. I tracked down his nephew who didn't know his uncle was awarded the MC, I've sent his family a copy of my research and am proud to have reunited his family with their history and brought his story back to life.

Alfred Boxall

Military Cross

Military Cross

Telegram informing George Of Alfred's death

Burial Notice   War Office 1917

Alfred Boxall  Grave

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Lancashire Fusilier

This topic may have finished, but i would like to add my story.

A great MC with excellent research.

Regards,

LF

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