WW1 - if enlisted at Southend on Sea, Essex, which battalion?

[KeeFran]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me please,

If my GG Grandfather enlisted during WW1 at Southend on Sea, which battalion is he likely to have served in? I know it would have been the Essex regiment, but from there?

I have seen only his medal card. No other service records found. (amongst the burnt documents?, he was a Private)

He survived the war and lived until 1969, with the effects of the Gas.

I would like to follow his path through the war, in respect to his memory and sacrifice.

Herbert Edward Turner

any advice gratefully accepted,

Cheers

Frances

[Guest]

He Frances.You will find the battalion(s) in which he may have served overseas with, in the medal rolls held at Kew.

What was his name and number?

Mike

[Old Owl]

Hi Frances,

I can only find one Herbert Edward Turner, Essex Regt, on Ancestry and he does not appear to have an MIC only a SWB (Silver War Badge) roll card. This shows him as Herbert Edward Turner, 18784 Sgt Essex Regt, Discharged 17/2/19. It also shows his address as 22,Crescent Rd., Brentwood, Essex.

I wonder is this him?

Robert

[KeeFran]

Hi Mike,

It is Herbert Edward Turner, born 1884,

His service number was 18784.

From the card I see he was a Sergeant by the time of discharge in Feb 1919

(also I notice I was born precisely 50 years later! 17th Feb)

He died at Aldershot in December 1969. I assume this was military medical services? Anyone know anything about that? He lived in West Ham.

Card attached,

Cheers,

Frances

[KeeFran]

Hiya,

Yes this is him.

Is that unusual that there is only a badge card?

My father was told that he sufferred gas attacks in France.

For that he would usually be awarded the two routine medals?

Frances

[spof]

Frances

You can see the actual claim form for the SWB he filled in himself on Ancestry. Go to the Silver War Badege Rolls under Military and select browse. Choose Infantry (Warley) and then select K 0801/2-1030/1. Onmce you open the first page of the roll, use the page number option in the top right and go to page 242.

Glen

[Old Owl]

Hi Frances,

Some of the MIC's are missing or mis-filed, so it is possible that he did have some medal entitlement. It may be worth looking on the National Archives to see if they have a copy.

His service number appears to be a service battalion number, but an expert on such things may be able to expand on this? If it is possible to find an MIC at TNA then this should give a date of entry into a theatre of war, which may make his battalion easier to identify. Unfortunately I think that you have to pay for an MIC through TNA before you can actually see the contents.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[spof]

Robert

There is only one entry for him at TNA which suggests only the SWB card survives.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=5849902&queryType=1&resultcount=1

If he was in a Service Battalion, the 13th sounds a good option:

13th (Service) Battalion (West Ham)

Formed at West Ham on 27 December 1914 by the Mayor and Borough. Moved to Brentwood in May 1915.

August 1915 : moved to Clipstone Camp and attached to 100th Brigade in 33rd Division.

17 November 1915 : landed at Boulogne.

22 December 1915 : transferred to 6th Brigade in 2nd Division.

10 February 1918 : disbanded in France.

[Old Owl]

Hi SPOF,

That would sound to fit quite well--but then I am sure that others may fit also?

I wonder if it would be possible to find him through the 1914/15 Star and BWM&VM, Medal Rolls at TNA? I think that it is possible to search by regiment as well as name?? I think that this may be the only option left, because there are no service papers for him either. Unfortunately I have had little experience of these rolls and I think that it requires an in-house researcher or a personal visit to TNA to access them?

Robert

[Kath]

Frances

You can see the actual claim form for the SWB he filled in himself on Ancestry.......

Glen

Thanks for this, Glen.

I didn't know about it.

Is the actual claim form available for every man?

Kath.

[spof]

I wonder if it would be possible to find him through the 1914/15 Star and BWM&VM, Medal Rolls at TNA? I think that it is possible to search by regiment as well as name?? I think that this may be the only option left, because there are no service papers for him either. Unfortunately I have had little experience of these rolls and I think that it requires an in-house researcher or a personal visit to TNA to access them?

Robert

The medal rolls most likely will show his battalion. From another H Turner's card, his entry for the BWM/VM will be in around WO 329/1376 or 1377. The Star if he qualified for it will be around WO 329/2748. It will require a visit or a paid researcher as TNA won't do it. Perhaps a request in the Documents Look Up Request forum will find someone who has more details or is going to Kew.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showforum=166

Glen

[spof]

Thanks for this, Glen.

I didn't know about it.

Is the actual claim form available for every man?

Kath.

Kath

I didn't know about it either

I've seen isolated ones in other volumes but not a full set like that. Most of the rolls I've seen are typed or hand written. Even eariler pages in the Warley section or like that. I think it all depends on the clerk who compiled the rolls.

Glen

[KevinBattle]

Name: Herbert Edward Turner. Age in 1911: 26. Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885

Birth Place: Southend on Sea, Essex. Civil parish: Southchurch. County/Island: Essex

Street Address: 57 Chinchilla Road, Southend On Sea. Marital Status: Married.

Years Married: 1 year and 10 months. Estimated Marriage Year: 1910. Occupation: Tram Driver

Herbert Edward Turner, aged 26. Ellen Turner, aged 18, born Highgate. Evelyn May Turner, age 1

Hello Frances and welcome.

I'm afraid it doesn't necessarily mean that GF served overseas, as being a tram driver, he may well have been used on the railway system in the UK.

He volunteered in May 1915 so with about 6 months training he would have normally been in France (or elsewhere) some time in 1915 and would therefore have been shown in the Medal Index Cards as being entitled to the 1915 Star as well as the British War and Victory medals. There isn't one (although obviously it may have been lost or misfiled).

Name: Herbert Edward Turner. Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1884. Registration district: Rochford

Inferred County: Essex. Volume: 4a. Page: 412

Name: Herbert Edward Turner. Birth Date: 5 Nov 1884. Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1969

Age at Death: 85. Registration district: Aldershot. Inferred County: Hampshire. Volume: 6b. Page: 93

Name: Herbert Turner. Age: 6. Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885. Mother's Name: Sarah Turner

Where born: Southend, Essex, England. Civil parish: Prittlewell

Ecclesiastical parish: Prittlewell All Saints. Town: Prittlewell

Enlisted 8 April 1915. Rank Sergeant. Discharged 17 February 1919. SWB No. B/132240

[Guest]

This might be his MIC, or the same SWB card? £3.36

Mike

[Old Owl]

The medal rolls most likely will show his battalion. From another H Turner's card, his entry for the BWM/VM will be in around WO 329/1376 or 1377. The Star if he qualified for it will be around WO 329/2748. It will require a visit or a paid researcher as TNA won't do it. Perhaps a request in the Documents Look Up Request forum will find someone who has more details or is going to Kew.

http://1914-1918.inv...p?showforum=166

Glen

Thanks Glen, hopefully Frances can follow this up.

Robert

This might be his MIC, or the same SWB card? £3.36

Mike

Almost certainly one and the same

Robert

[KeeFran]

Hello Everyone,

My internet dropped out last night and I had to leave you all, I came back to it this morning to find all this help. Thank you all so much!

I will follow all your advice and piece together everything.

Amazed that you went to the trouble of looking up the census's for him - those are the correct details.

Given that you are all so knowledgeable, or know someone who knows something, here are a few more details.

The family - Herbert, wife Ellen (Nellie), daughters Evelyn 1910, and Doris 1911/2, welcomed two boys, Bert and Ron, in 1920 and 1922.

The two boys were born in Norfolk. Prior to this, there was no family connection to Norfolk. Could he have been there for medical care? (could have been the plain old reason of a job there, but then why would they not go home to Southend?

Any thoughts appreciated,

Cheers,

Frances

[KeeFran]

Hi all,

Would the men enlisting at West Ham have come from all over Essex?

Herbert was from Southend, I thought they enlisted where they lived?

Cheers,

Frances

[KeeFran]

I guess I am hoping he was not part of the 13th battalion, because another relative (brothers-in law), also in the 13th battalion Essex (who definitely did live and enlist at Stratford West Ham) was killed at Delville wood on 31st July 1916. Having already researched those horrors, I just hope Herbert was elsewhere in another battalion,

Frances

[KeeFran]

Hi again,

just read this about men from one region, enlisting in another.

http://www.1914-1918.net/notlocal.html

So given that Herbert lived at Southend, but did have family connections over at West Ham its entirely possible he enlisted there.

(and we know he definitely returned to Brentwood)

I still don't want him to have been in the 13th!

Cheers,

Frances

[ss002d6252]

Looking at the CWGC records I'd say that there was a chance he was with the 13th Bn but a bit more work would need to be done on number around 187**

Essex Regiment 11th Bn. France '18697'

Essex Regiment 1st Bn. France '18707'

Essex Regiment 10th Bn. France '18714'

Essex Regiment 11th Bn. Belgium '18715'

Essex Regiment 9th Bn. France '18718'

Essex Regiment 1st Bn. France '18734'

Essex Regiment 1st Bn. Belgium '18743'

Essex Regiment 10th Bn. Belgium '18744'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18748'

Essex Regiment 9th Bn. France '18753'

Essex Regiment 1st Bn. France '18790'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18807'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18808'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18812'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18816'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18826'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. UK '18827'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18832'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18835'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18850'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18856'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18857'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18859'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18860'

Essex Regiment 2nd Bn. France '18862'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18863'

Essex Regiment 1st Bn. France '18867'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18870'

Essex Regiment 13th Bn. France '18877'

[kenf48]

Sorry to be negative but why do you think he was in the Essex Regiment?

Family lore is often reliable - if he was gassed in all probability he went overseas - it appears this man didn't. You say he was a private - this soldier was a Sergeant.

For example Herbert E. Turner was discharged from the Norfolks Depot (Norwich). He served overseas and had the 'routine two' medals and was a Private it could just as likely be him.

If you browse SDGW for the casualties listed in the post above the place of enlistment for the 13th Bn is all over the place.

Just an observation.

Ken

[KeeFran]

Hi Ken,

this is the thing, I don't know. And thats the problem.

Just speculating what could be, based on what i know, or info passed down.

perhaps need to separate fact from story.

Fact:

Herbert born in Southchurch (Southend) 1884.

First and second chilren born there in 1910/12.

1911 Census verifies residence (and that he was a cradle snatcher!)

Herberts two sons born in 1920 and 1922 in Norwich Norfolk. (no known previous family connection there)

Daughter Evelyn married in Southend in 1939

Herbert and wife lived at Romford in 1940's 50's until they passed in 1969.

Herbert died at Aldershot, six months after wife died at Romford.

Story:

Gas effects

served in Flanders

never spoke of his war experiences

attended 1968/9 war memorial service in Australia, and was snubbed by Australians

who believed the english were responsible for the atrocities (told this to my father)

which leaves unknown:

enlistment details

rank

service details

medals/badges awarded

"What makes me think it's the essex regiment" well, good question. You are right to think about this from another angle Ken.

The 18784 person, looks like the most likely, because of the middle name Edward. But there are a few other Herbert Turners also.

thanks for your input,

Cheers Frances

[KevinBattle]

Hi, Frances, we're not intending to demolish your family history, but trying to make it fit with what appear to be the facts about 18784 Herbert Edward Turner of the Essex Regiment to see if he is your GF!

He was a tram driver in Southend. He was born in Southend. He married and had two children in Southend before the War.

Then after the War he apparently moves to Norwich and two sons born there (Have you the Birth Certs as it might give occupation or whether at a hospital or not).

18784 Herbert Edwards didn't go to France before 1916. He had a Silver War Badge awarded which usually denotes severe impairment to health by wounds or disease.

Your GF lived to 85, well beyond what might be expected of a SWB holder "unfit for Army Service".

Not only that but the year before your GF died he went to a Memorial Service in Australia (why? - did he have Australian connections, served with an Australian unit or simply "happened" to be in Australia at the age of 84?)

We don't know for sure that 18784 was the same man as your GF. Having an SWB tends to indicate a shortened life expectancy. He was a tram driver and a skill that might have meant he served on light railway systems, perhaps in the UK. We don't know why your GF went to Norwich for at least a couple of years. Moving to Romford might fit in with working for London Underground as a tube driver etc. Yet he died in the Aldershot Registration area....

These don't tie up neatly (does anyones life?) but we can't just make a leap of faith with verification and so long after the events we don't have much to work with.

kenf48 came up with a namesake who served in the Norfolk Regiment, which might explain the 2 children registered in Norwich (unless they definitely were your GF's sons!)

At least if he was in the UK, then he DIDN'T serve in your dreaded 13th Battalion!!

[kenf48]

Just a thought is there an absent voter's list/Roll of Honour (including those who served - not just the dead) for Southend?

Also if he was gassed and repatriated have you checked the local newspaper archive? He may be listed among the wounded

Were the trams in Southend horse-drawn?

Might be a clue he could have gone in the ASC as a skilled driver, there is a Herbert Edwin in the SWB who was in the RASC (MT) and was invalided with the effects of gas. (I appreciate he was definitely Edward as in the 1911 Census).

Ken

[KeeFran]

Hi Kevin and Ken,

Thankyou so much for helping me wade through the possibilities.

some more details which explain the Australian connection: Herbert's daughter Evelyn (my grandmother) emmigrated in 1955. My father says that the 1968/9 visit was always considered a bad idea by the family (after the fact) because they came by ship, didn't like Australia much, and went home. On the return trip Herberts wife Ellen fell and broke her hip, and died shortly after her arrival home (mid 1969). (father and I are in Australia, Grandmother passed in 1995, here in Aust).

Then, there's the two Norwich sons. They are definitely Herberts and the birth records show Ellen as their mother. the youngest, Ronald was an artist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Turner_%28illustrator%29

Whilst the war was out of bounds for discussion over the years, family details like Ronald (1922 - 1998) and Berts (1920 - 1992) life were common knowledge to us, we know they were Herberts boys. (But sadly were are not in touch with their children who might be able to assist with details) It is so hard to find people with a surname like Turner.

I will have to find out if the Southend trams were horse drawn - another research idea ! thanks, I never thought of that. And also I will check for details of wounded,

thanks,

Frances