Medals for those K.I.A

[Roy Evans]

Did the families of men killed in action eventually receive Victory Medals on their behalf?

[Guest Hill 60]

Did the families of men killed in action eventually receive Victory Medals on their behalf?

Yes. Basically, all medals awarded to a man who had died were given to the next-of-kin. We have three such groups in our family; 2 x WWI & 1 x WWII.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

"Depends" - British WW1 service medals for deceased servicemen / women were automatically issued to the last recorded next of kin of Other Ranks, but medals to Commissioned Officers had to be applied for by the nok.

This is why the "failure" rate of searches for Officer's medal index cards is higher than with OR's cards - no application = no index card. This is particulary noticable with some of the Irish regiments, for fairly obvious reasons.

Regards - Tom

[Roy Evans]

Thanks Lee and Tom

Regards

Roy

[Paul Reed]

I am not sure Tom is right about this; he is correct that there was a difference between the issue of medals to officers and men (officers did have to claimn their own medals), but it was my understanding that medals to deceased officers were automatically issued to their next of kin. If not, I would love to read the paperwork saying otherwise. Perhaps Tom can quote it?

Personally I have never failed to find an MIC for a deceased officer, and I have looked up one or two of them since they were first released.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

(thank’s for pointing that out T-; missed it whilst occupied elsewhere, as one does)

--------- I would also like to see “the paperwork” explaining this issue – if anyone knows of it. In the meantime the question of having to apply for deceased Officer’s medals >

As far as I am aware there is no straightforward answer to the question of the rules of issue of deceased Officer’s WW1 service medals to their next of kin – simply the sometimes ambiguous “evidence” to be found in Officer’s service files. I’ve always believed that any non-automatic issue to the senior next of kin of either a deceased Officer or Other Rank (assuming that no valid will specifying something contrary was in place) would contravene Standing Army Orders – para 180 of 1917 for example – the wording seems quite clear and unambiguous.

However, it is far from unusual to find Officer’s service files which have not been weeded of correspondence which specifically relates to the non-issue of service medals to deceased Officer’s nok, when no specific request for issue of the medals has previously been made – for example I was recently looking at the files of Lieut Wilfred Patrick O’Malley 88th Foot, and as late as 1924 his brother (also an ex Officer) was writing to the War Office pursuing WPO’M’s medal issues on behalf of his parents. There were no factors which could have obviously affected the issue of the medals – no change of the parent’s address (which was also WPO’M’s address, he was single and resided with his parents), and no change of nok as recorded on the commission application, etc. This type of correspondence is “relatively” commonplace.

I have heard a “theory” that at least some of these cases may have something to do with an over zealous application of the Regimental Debts Act 1893 (as amended) and that medal issues had not been made because probate had not been proved, or evidence to that effect had not been submitted, or some other “reason”. I am dubious about that because the RDA specifically excludes medals and decorations from being held against any outstanding debt which the Officer or OR may have against him at the time of his death, and elsewhere states that medals shall be disposed of in accordance with Royal Warrant – which takes you straight back to Army Orders.

So there is no easy answer – simply an observation based on experience – though the likelihood of coming across officer’s service files which include correspondence relating to the non issue of medals to deceased officer’s nok will of course depend a great deal on the number of officer’s files which one actually examines. It might however be disingenuous to make too much of that, so I wont.

Ditto medal index cards – I’ve looked at seven officer’s service records in the past two days – all Regulars, all with War Office file ledger references - five open files, one closed file, and one destroyed file (ie a valid “open” WO “long number” which does not relate to any WO339 service file in the NA [PRO] conversion codes, or any name index entry in WO374, as sometimes is the case with Regular officers). Five of those officers had medal index cards and two didn’t – the man with the closed file, who survived the war, and the man with the destroyed file, who had been killed in action (coincidentally he served in an Irish Regiment).

Again, I suppose that this may just boil down to “chance finds”, dependant upon the number of mic’s that one routinely examines. (And “examining mic’s” needs some comment elsewhere on the forum, when I get round to it). Regards - Tom

[David_Bluestein]

Having researched MANY dozens of fallen officers (mostly Canadian); It is my experience that ALL of them had their medals and decorations automatically sent to next of kin. I would assume this to be true for all other British and Commonwealth officers as well.

Officer (and Or's) service documents include a form that confirms the dates and details of each of the mailings for medals, decorations, Memorial Death Plaque and Memorial Cross(es). Both a mother and wife are entitled to a Memorial Cross, usually going to two separate addresses. (incidentally it is very desirable and RARE to find two memorial crosses with a medal group!)

[Guest Hill 60]

Both a mother and wife are entitled to a Memorial Cross, usually going to two separate addresses.

David - Were the family restricted to just two Crosses? Was there any protocol for families buying more Crosses if other women, sisters for instance, wanted one?

[David_Bluestein]

My understanding, and please correct me other forum members if you know otherwise, but I believe the entitlement was restricted to mothers and wives ONLY. Crosses were not ever struck for other family members such as sisters.

However if crosses were lost, a family could make an official request for a replacement issue, BUT would receive a current styled Memorial Cross, such as the modern EII cross, and not the GV style Great War version.

Example of the GV Cross:

[Guest Hill 60]

David - Thanks for that. I had a sneaking suspicion that would be the case but it doesn't hurt to check these things out.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Having researched MANY dozens of fallen officers (mostly Canadian); It is my experience that ALL of them had their medals and decorations automatically sent to next of kin. I would assume this to be true for all other British and Commonwealth officers as well.

David - I was referring to British Officers in the British Army - I had thought that to have been quite clear, but apologise if it wasnt.

Your unblemished record with regards to Canadian Officers is admirable - I only wish that the same degree of success could be acheived in the British archives.

Personally I'd prefer not to have to "assume" anything unless an assumption was absolutely the last option - and if the assumption has to be adopted then care should be taken to flag the fact that it is an assumption. Regards - Tom

[David_Bluestein]

Personally I'd prefer not to have to "assume" anything unless an assumption was absolutely the last option - and if the assumption has to be adopted then care should be taken to flag the fact that it is an assumption. Regards - Tom

I don't speak from a position of knowledge and absolutes in respect to British Officer records; however I will from a Canadian Officer stand point. With confidence, Canadian Officer service medals were always remitted without application by next of kin.

Best wishes

David

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I don't speak from a position of knowledge and absolutes in respect to British Officer records; .....

David - neither do I - and I'd suggest that if you ever meet someone who does, then a degree of scepticism may be in order. British records in this field tend only to be consitent in their inconsistancy.

I have noted your assurances ref the issue of Canadian medals - unfortunately I never deal with Canadian records, it is British records which concern me. But anyway, point noted (Canadian records, that is). Regards - Tom