Rothschild's in the Great War – Rothschild brothers with the Royal

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking into the Rothschild's involvement (Military, not political) in the Great War, especially about Major Evelyn Achille de Rothschild (Died from wounds received during the charge of El-Mughar) and his brother, Captain Anthony Gustav de Rothschild, who were with Royal Buckingham Yeomanry Regiment.

In addition to these two brothers I know that two other brothers related to the Rothschild family (Through their mother, Hannah Rothschild) were serving – Lord Dalmeny (Albert Edward Harry Meyer Archibald Primrose) and Captain Neil Primrose, who also served with Royal Buckingham Yeomanry Regiment and was killed in action.

The fifth member of the Rothschild's who served in the Great War was Major James Armand de Rothschild who served first in the French army and later served with the Jewish Legion.

I'm looking for some help with a few details:

Does anyone know of other members of the Rothschild family who served on either side during the Great War (I've heard about one in the Austro-Hungarian army, but was never able to validate that)?

Captain Anthony Gustav de Rothschild – Served in Gallipoli, wounded and evacuated back to England.

• Did he return to active service? If he did, was he in Palestine with the Bucks?
  
• Did he receive any awards, and if so, is there a description of the deed/s (His service card is from 1915)?
  

Captain The Honourable Neil James Archibald Primrose – Was wounded (Gallipoli?) and returned to England. Received the M.C. in 1916. Later returned to service with the Bucks and was killed during the charge on Abu-Shushe ridge.

• What did he receive the M.C. for and is there a description of that deed (Service Card gives no details)?
  

Major Evelyn Achille de Rothschild – Was in Gallipoli and according to one source, temporarily in command of the Yeomanry Bucks. According to a different source, Evelyn was injured and sent to England to recuperate (Maybe there's confusion here and mixing things up with his brother, Anthony) and returned to the front within a few months. Later he is Mentioned in Dispatches. He was wounded mortally during the charge of El-Mughar and evacuated to Cairo, where he died and was buried. In 1919 his coffin was transferred to Palestine and re-buried in Rishon Le-Zion.

• Can anyone validate if Major Evelyn Rothschild was indeed temporarily in command of the Yeomanry Bucks in Gallipoli?
  
• Was Major Evelyn Rothschild injured in Gallipoli and sent to England to recuperate?
  
• What was Major Evelyn Rothschild Mentioned in Dispatchesfor? Is there a relevant quote (Service Card gives no details)?
  
• Who authorized the transfer of the coffin from Cairo and it's re-burial in a non-CWGC location and burial-style (Strange as this may sound – CWGC records show that way back in 1921 they were troubled with this very same question, that remained unanswered. A different source claimed that this was authorized by the British government, but I found to validation to this claim)? On this matter, please note the remarks & questions regarding Major James Armand de Rothschild (next).
  

Link showing Major Evelyn Rothschild's grave:

http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=1191544

Major James Armand de Rothschild – As far as I know, he enrolled first with the French army as a private (Not validated). Served as a translator (Not validated) and was injured in a car-accident (Not validated) and sent back to England. There he got involved with formation of the Jewish Legion. One source claims that he joined the Canadian Army (Not validated) in order to be able to join the Legion (Found no British Service-Card with his name, however, his service in the Jewish Legion is well documented and unquestionable). He was awarded the DCM.

As a member of the Zionist Commission that operated in Egypt & Palestine between 1918-1921 on one side and being family connected with the late Major Evelyn Rothschild on the other side – Major James Rothschild seems likely to be the person responsible for the transfer of the coffin of Major Evelyn Rothschild from Cairo to Rishon Le-Zion.

• Can anyone validate the details Mentioned above regarding the military service of Major James Rothschild?
  
• What was Major James Rothschild awarded the DCM for (details please)?
  
• Can anyone validate that Major James Rothschild is the person responsible for transfer of the coffin of Major Evelyn Rothschild from Cairo to Rishon Le-Zion?
  
• If not, does anyone have any other ideas of how this unique event happened?
  

Lots of questions, I know.

Looking forward for your input.

Thanks, Eran

[michaeldr]

Eran,

Primrose got his MC in the King's Birthday list, 3 June 1916 - see http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29608/supplements/5576

(incidentally, the first name on that same list of new MCs is HRH The Prince of Wales)

This would not be for a particular deed or single action

regards

Michael

[Eran Tearosh]

Michael,

Thanks. Didn't know it was possible to receive MC without performing a particular deed or action. Good to be connected….

Is that the case also regarding James Rothschild's DCM?

How do you manage the heat wave?

Regards and cooler new week,

Eran

[michaeldr]

Eran,

re James Armand de Rothschild - One source claims that he joined the Canadian Army (Not validated)

Looks like he joined the Royal Fusiliers from the Royal Canadian Dragoons

See http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30537/supplements/2318

R. Fus. Lt. J. E. A. de Rothschild (R. Can. Dns.) to be temp. Capt. 18 Feb. 1918.

[see also http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30584/supplements/3449

R. Fus.Temp. Capt. J. E. A. De Rothschild to be temp. Maj. 6 Mar. 1918.]

... ... ...

I'm not looking forward to my next electricity bill

Shavoua Tov

Michael

[michaeldr]

Eran,

I've found a ref which gives him as already having the DCM,

but I have not found any indication as to in what circumstances he was awarded the medal

see http://www.london-ga...1423/pages/8178

R. Fus.Temp., Maj. J. E. A. de .Rothschild, D.C.M. (Lt., R. Can. Dns.), relinquishes the temp, rank of Maj. on ceasing to' be empld. with a Serv. Bn. 4 May 1919.

regards

Michael

[Terry_Reeves]

Eran

Three opt those that you mention have files at the National Archives:

N J A Primrose WO 374/55314

J A de Rothschild WO374/19328

E A de Rothschild WO 374 19327

EA is also commemorated in London : http://tinyurl.com/7b4f34l

TR

[michaeldr]

There's another ref to the DCM here so it's unlikely to be a mistake (?)

see http://www.london-ga...upplements/7899

Can Cav. Temp. Lt. (actg. Capt.) J. E. A. de Rothschild, D.C.M., relinquishes his commn. in the O.M.F. of C. 25 Apr. 1919

(OMF of C = Overseas Military Forces of Canada)

Edited 14 July , 2012 by michaeldr

[Eran Tearosh]

Terry – Thanks. Are these files accessible digitally, and if so – How? If not, how can one living abroad extract info from these files?

As for the photo – Again thanks, I'm well aware of its existence and whereabouts. Evelyn's brother, Anthony, unveiled in 1920 the War Memorial in the churchyard of All Saints Church at Wing, Buckinghamshire, honoring his brother and other Wing soldiers killed in the Great War. There names, including Evelyn's, are engraved on the memorial's base. http://www.wing-ops.org.uk/wm.html

Michael – Thanks. So the fact that James Rothschild, who started the war as a private in the French Army, joined the Canadian Army and was attached to the British Army in Palestine is established. But why??

To start with, Why (And how) did he join the Canadian Army and not the British Army? As far as I know, he was a British citizen around this time. Strange.

Second – Never saw such an incredible pace of rank promotion…

Third – The DCM

Fourth – From my point, the most important thing is to find a proof that it was James who organized the transfer of Evelyn's coffin from Cairo to Palestine.

Eran

[michaeldr]

Eran,

Lord Dalmeny (Neil Primrose's brother) had served as Allenby's Camp Commandant and ADC in France 1914-1917, and Allenby brought him over to Egypt as his Military Secretary.

Savage in his book 'Allenby of Armageddon' writes

“The position of Military Secretary is one of extreme dificulty, and the more especially in an army which included such diverse units and races as did the Army of Palestine and Egypt. Lord Dalmeny was brought from Fance, where he had served in a similar capacity to Allenby, who once described him to me as 'wonderfully level-headed, a great worker, fearless and scrupulous to a degree.' Free from the usual military prejudices, Dalmeny was entirely above self-seeking ambitions, and did not care a brass button what happened provided that he did his job and did it efficiently. I worked under him for some months and was deeply impressed by his energy, fearlessness, and fairness.”

In his capacity as Allenby's Military Secretary, Lord Dalmeny would have had all the necessary contacts and 'rank' in order to arrange the special transfer and burial of Rothschild's body. My guess is that Dalmeny was involved, but it's only a guess.

.....................................................................................................

the web information suggests that J. E. A. de Rothschild did not become a British citizen until 1919, but I have not seen any evidence for this statement. He was commissioned a Temp Lieutenant (Canadian) on 1^st May 1917; see http://www.london-ga...upplements/4785

regards

Michael

edit to add:

Found it at last - de Rothschild, James Edmond Armand (of France) took the Oath of Allegiance 22^ndMarch 1920

see http://www.london-ga...1857/pages/4246

Edited 15 July , 2012 by michaeldr

[Terry_Reeves]

Eran

They are not available digitally. I will be going to the NA in a couple of weeks time so if I get the chance I'll have a look for you. Can you pm me your e mail address?

TR

[michaeldr]

Eran,

further to my previous post, here are some details on Albert Edward Harry Meyer Archibald, Lord Dalmeny

educated Eton & Sandhurst

2nd Lt. in Grenadier Guards

in Reserve of Officers on becoming MP 1906-1910

15 Aug 1914 GSO 3rd Grade

2nd Lt., (temp Captain) to be Lieutenant 26 Jan 1915

Allenby's Camp Commandant, then ADC (unsure of the dates; Savage & Hughes say from 1914)

Assistant Military Secretary to General Allenby from 31 October 1915 (graded for pay as a D.A.A.G) Lt., now temp Captain

Awarded the MC, Birthday Honours 3 Jun 1916

Went with Allenby to the EEF where he became his Military Secretary (officailly, Military Secretary's Staff, Assistant Military Secretary [graded for pay as an A. A. G.]) 21 June 1917

Awarded the DSO, Birthday Honours 3 Jun 1918

Mentioned in F. M. Allenby's Despatch 28 Jun 1919 - "The work of the Military Secretary's branch has been ably performed by Lieut.-Colonel Lord Dalmeny; and, since his departure, by Lieut.-Colonel R. H. Andrew."

Ceased to be Military Seretary 31 Dec 1918, but retained rank of Lt-Col

and remained on Allenby's 'High Commission' staff at the Residency (Cairo) until August 1919

Awarded Ch. L. o H.

[details from LG & 'Allenby in Palestine – the middle east correspondence of F M Viscount Allenby' ed. by Matthew Hughes]

regards

Michael

[Eran Tearosh]

Thanks Michael,

I'm not familiar with the meaning of D.A.A.G & A.A.G.

Do you know how can I get info. regarding what was Major Evelyn Rothschild Mentioned in Dispatches for?

Eran

[michaeldr]

Eran,

DAAG = Deputy Assistant Adjutant General

AAG = Assistant Adjutant General

These are indicative not just of his pay scale, but also of the 'clout' which he would have had. If anyone could bend the rules and call in favours, then it would be a man who had served close to Allenby for four years and was then retained by the FM post-war when he became High Commissioner.

Dalmeny's being in Cairo in 1919 puts him in the right place at the right time, but still, I have no hard evidence for his involvement in this.

I'm very sorry but so far I have been unable to turn up anything re the MiD for Evelyn

I did however come across this one for AG

From LG http://www.london-ga...upplements/1197

[names mentioned in Sir Ian Hamilton's Despatch of 11 December 1915]

Buckinghamshire Yeomanry.

Second Lieutenant (temporary Lieutenant)

A. G. de Rothschild.

Good luck

Michael

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi Michael,

Indeed, it seems that Dalmeny was in the right place, the right time and the right position to arrange the transfer of Evelyn's coffin. However, as far as I understand the 'politics' of the Rothschild family – I cannot see this as Dalmeny's initiative. Due to the nature of the second funeral in Rishon Le-Zion and the contents of several documents I believe the initiative was of someone from 'The Zionist Commission for Palestine' (Weizmann?) who was assisted by James Rothschild. It makes sense that James would approach his relative, Lord Dalmeny, who in turn could assist greatly to make it happen. All this is speculation of course, and the search for proofs continues…

Thanks for all the help,

Eran

[michaeldr]

Eran,

Agreed. I don't think that Dalmeny would be the initiator of the idea

but it seems probable that he was in the best position to be the facilitator

Good luck with this research

Michael

[Brian Berman]

Greetings'

 

I too am researching the Military activites of Major James A. de Rothschild in the 39th Royal Fusiliers and the Jewish Brigade.  All the source links published in this blog and on Wikipedia lead nowhere.

What was his role?

Was he stationed in Cario?

Did he enter Palestine in a Military role?

Was he the Commanding Office of the 39th? 

Apparently he was on the troop ship HMS Chapman with Jewish Legion (39th?) troops which landed in Cario in 1918 (day? month?).  Any way to find a "troop list" for HMS Chapman.

Is there any record of a citation also with his military ward to describe his "feats in service"?  

Can't understand why these troops of the 39th were shipped into Cairo in 1918, when Allenby had already entered Jerusalem.  There was almost no more action with the Turks in Palestine, except for the Battle of Megiddo, and unclear to me if the 39th were involved.

When did JAdR "demob" and go back to the UK? 

 

Thanks

Brian Berman

[Brian Berman]

Also -- any evidence of his being a go-between for Allenby's forces and the Jewish underground operating against the Ottomans in Palestine?

[KizmeRD]

 

 

17 hours ago, Brian Berman said:

Greetings'

 

I too am researching the Military activites of Major James A. de Rothschild in the 39th Royal Fusiliers and the Jewish Brigade.  All the source links published in this blog and on Wikipedia lead nowhere.

What was his role?

Was he stationed in Cario?

Did he enter Palestine in a Military role?

Was he the Commanding Office of the 39th? 

Apparently he was on the troop ship HMS Chapman with Jewish Legion (39th?) troops which landed in Cario in 1918 (day? month?).  Any way to find a "troop list" for HMS Chapman.

Is there any record of a citation also with his military ward to describe his "feats in service"?  

Can't understand why these troops of the 39th were shipped into Cairo in 1918, when Allenby had already entered Jerusalem.  There was almost no more action with the Turks in Palestine, except for the Battle of Megiddo, and unclear to me if the 39th were involved.

When did JAdR "demob" and go back to the UK? 

 

Thanks

Brian Berman

 

CO of 39th was Lt. Col. Elizar Margolin. The Bn. arrived late April 1918 and moved to the front line on 15th September just in time for Allenby's Megiddo offensive (in which the 38th played a more significant role).

Michael

[Brian Berman]

Much thanks.  Very helpful.  Any idea why the 39th (and obviously the 37th .to. 42nd) were not demobbed until sometime in 1919 (when?),  The War as over even thought Versailles was not yet "done".  So why keep them in place?

 

Were there 38th "skirmishes" in Egypt at or near Karna?

[KizmeRD]

Brian,

 

Major James de Rothschild's military role in Palestine seems to have been the recruitment of local Volunteers into the Jewish Legion, but he would certainly have also had a political involvement in liaising between Allenby and the Zionist Commission (see photo, left to right Ormsby-Gore, Weizmann, de Rothschild).

 

The slow pace of demobilisation was certainly a big issue at the time, but it has to be remembered the the Jewish battalions had only been formed comparatively late on in the war and other units had served overseas far longer, also both Palestine and Egypt were very unstable areas throughout 1919.

 

Michael

 

Edited 6 December , 2019 by KizmeRD

[FROGSMILE]

I am curious about the award of a Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM), as this was (until the 1990s) the highest individual gallantry award specifically for Army personnel below the rank of commissioned officer.  It was second only to the Victoria Cross, and came with a detailed citation.  Can anyone throw some light how a Rothschild with initial service in the French Army followed by commissioned service in both, Canadian cavalry and a prestigious British infantry regiment came to be awarded the DCM?  One thought is that his ostensible work as a translator might have earned a British gallantry award, perhaps early in the war, if carried out in notably courageous circumstances, but that is total speculation.

Edited 7 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

Still looking for the full citation

but does this entry suggest that it was awarded while serving with the Canadians?

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31423/page/8178

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

Still looking for the full citation

but does this entry suggest that it was awarded while serving with the Canadians?

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31423/page/8178

It’s possible if his initial service with the Royal Canadian Dragoons was as an enlisted other rank.  Some units were bilingual and it makes sense to me that his first unit under the British Crown might make use of his French language, as well as giving him the opportunity to understand British style, military culture and organisation, in his native language.  It really needs his citation to be sure though.

Edited 7 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Brian Berman]

Much thanks.  Very helpful.  Any idea why the 39th (and obviously the 37th .to. 42nd) were not demobbed until sometime in 1919 (when?),  The War as over even thought Versailles was not yet "done".  So why keep them in place?

 

Were there 38th "skirmishes" in Egypt at or near Karna?

 

Re the DCM - very puzzling:  speculation from other "historical" sources and private papers is that he was Liasion (*) (and more) with "irregular forces" in Palestine, acting against the Ottomans. It would be interesting t know if he actually saw action with the battalion he was assigned to!

 

(*)  the Photo form Wikipedia his liaison role was already in early 1918 with the Commission was in Israel, while his recruitment efforts. NOT only in Israel, but also for boy soldier volunteers in schools the London East end, appear to have been also in early 1918.

[Brian Berman]

On 14/07/2012 at 19:03, Terry_Reeves said:

J A de Rothschild WO374/19328

Cant find this in the National Arcvhive website.  100% sure that I just don't know who to use that site.  Anyone extracted that record into a stand alone file, I would be greatful to recive a copy - want my email?  Thanks.