(British) Indian Army Officers Serving in British Battalions

[bill24chev]

Slightly off subject but how did the Indian Army Regiments make up the shortfall in officers seconded to Kitchener units, did they recruit from the White Indian civil servants or were Viceroys Commissioned Officers (Indian) given greater responsibility?

[Guest]

Daggers - unfortunately there is no recorded history of the 8th Bn to my knowledge. Given Northumberland was an area of high population density, there should be no surprise that a number of IA officers on furlough were in the area - I assume all had to report to the nearest district Army HQ. There is a tendency for the IA men to appear in the first Service Bns raised - As I am sure you are aware the 3rd Bn was Militia and the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Bns were TF (each with a handful of ex Boer War veterans from their Volunteer Battalion days). As mentioned in earlier posts, the IA Officers don't appear in the TF battalions - presumably because they were already well staffed and could easily draw upon local ex members to swell the Officer ranks if needed.

As you know, the raising of the Kitchener Battalions became a race in many instances and I suspect whoever was in charge of raising the 8th Bn - the first Service Bn of the Northumberland Fusiliers - seized the opportunity to take any locally available IA Officers. I suspect that the CO (Maj later Lt Col) Fishbourne (WIA 7th Aug 15) and one of his Company Commanders Maj EE Williams DSO (KIA Gallipoli 9th Aug 15) both saw the advantages of having experienced Company Commanders. It still raises the question whether the IA Officers were from a local pool of IA Officers or whether they came from a national pool of Officers.

It would seem statistically unlikely that three IA Officers from the same regiment (25th Punjabis) happened to all be in the same area at the outbreak of war. Also I wonder if the three requested to serve together and managed to pull some strings as you suggest. All three were wounded within days of landing at Gallipoli and one died of wounds. The 8th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers' Officers were all either KIA or WIA within 2 weeks of landing with the exception of Maj C R L FitzGerald 126th Baluchis. He was the only Officer who landed to remain unscathed throughout the campaign. These Officer casualty rates were not uncommon for the Kitchener battalions of 10th (Irish) and 11th (northern) Divs. The 9th (Service) Bn Sherwood Foresters had 100% Officer casualties. The average for those in the original landing groups was 98% (KIA, WIA and MIA) which partially explains why these battalions are generally poorly served with published histories from the period immediately following the war.

MG

[Guest]

Slightly off subject but how did the Indian Army Regiments make up the shortfall in officers seconded to Kitchener units, did they recruit from the White Indian civil servants or were Viceroys Commissioned Officers (Indian) given greater responsibility?

I am not sure, but it would make sense that the ICS would have provided many, simply because they had the language skills. I thinks some of the Volunteer units of the Indian Army provided many replacement officers for the regular Indian Army, but here again we find more problems. The Ceylon Planters Rifle Corps for example had a large number of educated men in their Other Ranks. This unit (or a large part of it at least) was used in Gallipoli initially as GHQ troops, but as Officer casualties climbed, many were given commissions in the field and used to fill the empty Officer ranks in the British battalions. While this is not exactly answering the question you pose, it might suggest that other (European) Indian Army Volunteer Units' ORs were swiftly promoted to fill the depleted regular IA Officer ranks on other fronts.

Indian Army Infantry and Cavalry units had lower numbers of regimental Officers as the Viceroy Commissioned Officers in each unit who often commanded platoons or companies. This also created problems, as a small number of British Officer casualties would potentially have catastrophic effects on command and control. The 1/5th Gurkhas, 1/6th Gurkhas, 2/10th Gurkhas and the 14th Ferozepore Sikhs were particularly hard hit at Gallipoli in this way and it is testimony to the qualities of the Indian and Gurkha VCOs who held the battalions together in quite brutal conditions. Sending a British Officer with no language skills would have been of little use and I suspect the Ceylon Planters would have not had Urdu. In this case, rather due to necessity than by desire the VCOs took over in the absence of British Officer reinforcements. I am sure there are examples of Indian battalions losing all their British Officers and carrying on.

It is not an area that I have researched, but I suspect the ICS and Volunteer units provided many of the necessary Officer reinforcements. They were based in Hong Kong at the outbreak of the war.

MG

P.S. It would be interesting to see how the 25th Punjabis filled the gaps created by the 8th (Service) Bn Northumberland Fusiliers taking three of their Officers

[bill24chev]

Thank you for that Martin.

[David_Underdown]

I think I've seen notes in London Gazette that those cadets destined for the Indian Army were initially commissioned on the General List "for Indian Army" attached on a probationary basis to the Indian Army and the confirmed in their rank a year or so later - presumably once the language side of things and general suitability was sorted.

[battiscombe]

as an aside on the language issue in this interesting thread, I would be interested to know how many newly commissioned officers may have had some Indian language skills - from being born in india to military or Indian civil service families (although many were probably sent home to England to school). Glancing at the RMA Woolwich 1911 census of some 100 gentleman cadets listed in one return I see that 28 were born in India (+ a few more in Ceylon).

(I would also note that quite a few artillery officers on leave from units in india were redeployed to make up wartime strength for regular RA units, or to rebuild units stripped of men to reinforce units in the first BEF Divisions - but not to New Army Brigades as far as I know)

[seaforth78]

Martin,

I am quite curious to learn that when you attended those intensive language courses in Hong Kong, were your teachers' Nepalese or Englishmen? No doubt hearing and studying directly from the source is best rather then from a heavily non-native user.

Incidently, in an BBC documentaryc. 1986/7 it showed the CO of 6th Gurkha Rifles when addressing the time expired men, speaking wonderful Gurkhali. This would have been in HK. No doubt you knew him.

[nigelfe]

If my father's service is anything to go by, in WW1 British offrs were not attached to British inf bns before joining an Indian one.

His service started the day after commissioning being '2Lt unattached list' and 'Lt 3 QVO Corps of Guides' on the same day! Joined 3 QVO in India 3 months later including a "Physical & Bayonet Training" course at Quetta, 6 months later 1/151 Punjabi Rifles and out of India into the NWF, 3 months later 1/103 Maharatta LI , 3 months later 2/41 Dogras for the rest of his service including qualifying as a "Lewis Gun and Revolver Instructor" at Rawalpindi.

His active service record shows 'Operations in Tochi Valley' (Oct 1919), 'Derajat Column' (Dec 1919), 'Wazir Force and Wana Column' (1920-21)

Interestingly his record shows no passing of language exams, although he was born in India.

[Guest]

If my father's service is anything to go by, in WW1 British offrs were not attached to British inf bns before joining an Indian one.

His service started the day after commissioning being '2Lt unattached list' and 'Lt 3 QVO Corps of Guides' on the same day! Joined 3 QVO in India 3 months later including a "Physical & Bayonet Training" course at Quetta, 6 months later 1/151 Punjabi Rifles and out of India into the NWF, 3 months later 1/103 Maharatta LI , 3 months later 2/41 Dogras for the rest of his service including qualifying as a "Lewis Gun and Revolver Instructor" at Rawalpindi.

His active service record shows 'Operations in Tochi Valley' (Oct 1919), 'Derajat Column' (Dec 1919), 'Wazir Force and Wana Column' (1920-21)

Interestingly his record shows no passing of language exams, although he was born in India.

Nigel - Thanks for this. Very interesting that he passed between so many Regiments in such a short period. I wonder if the fact that he did not do time with a British Infantry unit was a function of the limitations due to the War and most India based British Infantry were sent to France and other fronts. I know some British regular Battalions stayed in India throughout the War, but I imagine they were all pretty stretched. When was he commissioned? Edit: I see it was 1917 from your previous post. MG

MG

[Guest]

I am quite curious to learn that when you attended those intensive language courses in Hong Kong, were your teachers' Nepalese or Englishmen?

It was taught by Gurkhas - mostly Queen's Gurkha Officers or SNCOs seconded to the language school.

Back to WWI: I suspect the language courses in the Indian Army were taught by Indians. There were in addition some interesting publications to help the Officers learn about the customs of the men they were to lead - Handbook for the Indian Army: Gurkhas by Eden Vansittart first publish (I think) in 1895 but in continuous print throughout WWI, WWII and beyond.

The definitive Nepali dictionary was not complied until Sir Ralph Turner's huge tome "A Comparative and Etymological Dictionary of the Nepali Language" which suggest in 1931 at least, the authority on the military language was not Nepalese. In 1923 the standard work was "Nepali Grammar and Vocabulary" by the Rev A Turnbull again suggesting British scholars as the guiding 'authority'. Legend has it that this hefty tome weighed exactly the same as a Gurkha's rifle and bayonet. I have no idea what WWI Gurkha Officers used. In 1919 there was a "Gurkhali Manual" by G W P Money which may have had its etymological roots in an earlier edition as it is not clear which edition this is. It was still used in the 1940s along with other titles. A 1919 publication would suggest it was definitely being taught then.

The Handbook for the Indian Army had other volumes for the other types of Regiments.

MG

[bushfighter]

Martin

Namaste

Major Herbert Augustine Carter VC, 101st Grenadiers, was in UK on leave in August 1914.

He was posted to the 10th (Service) Battalion the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (his original regiment where he served his mandatory year's service before his transfer to the Indian Army) and then to the 16th (Service) Battalion the Durham Light Infantry.

Herbert achieved a release from the DLI and returned to the Indian Army where he was attached to the 40th Pathans.

He then died tragically in British East Africa.

(I have written an article on him for the Journal of the Indian Military Historical Society, http://www.imhs.org.uk/ , which I hope will be published soon.)

Harry

[nigelfe]

Nigel - Thanks for this. Very interesting that he passed between so many Regiments in such a short period. I wonder if the fact that he did not do time with a British Infantry unit was a function of the limitations due to the War and most India based British Infantry were sent to France and other fronts. I know some British regular Battalions stayed in India throughout the War, but I imagine they were all pretty stretched.

My guess is that regts in India were posting officers as BCRs to Mesopotamia, etc, and this involved continuous juggling to keep numbers reasonably balanced in India units, particularly those on NWF.

IIRC there were 8 Brit regular army bns that remained in India throughout the war, although I suspect there may have been notable turnover of individuals. These bns took a leading role in the 3rd Afghan War, there was also a regular Brit cav regt, and I think it was a sqn of this regt that made the last mounted charge by Brit cavalry.

You may like my father's favourite Gurkha story, he came across a small group of them having a jolly time with a dodgy local, had him squatting with skirts pulled up while they flicked small pebbles at his tackle.

[Guest]

Martin

Namaste

Major Herbert Augustine Carter VC, 101st Grenadiers, was in UK on leave in August 1914.

He was posted to the 10th (Service) Battalion the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (his original regiment where he served his mandatory year's service before his transfer to the Indian Army) and then to the 16th (Service) Battalion the Durham Light Infantry.

Herbert achieved a release from the DLI and returned to the Indian Army where he was attached to the 40th Pathans.

He then died tragically in British East Africa.

(I have written an article on him for the Journal of the Indian Military Historical Society, http://www.imhs.org.uk/ , which I hope will be published soon.)

Harry

Dhanyabad huzoor.

[bushfighter]

For those wishing to learn more about the commissioning of officers for the Indian Army during the war, my research into Indian Army Volunteer (whites & mixed-race soldiers) units in East Africa showed that some other ranks were commissioned through IARO into local Indian Army units.

However the British Army CSM (equivalent to a Regular Army Permanent Staff Instructor in the British TA) of one unit was commissioned into a local British Army battalion.

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/other-war-theatres/1072-indian-volunteers-in-the-great-war-east-african-campaign.html

Indian Army Volunteer units were raised for home defence and many members stayed in India throughout the war.

However some volunteered for overseas service and they went either in formed units or as individual soldiers or officers. Doubtless these chaps provided many useful candidates for commissions in the theatres where they served.

After the war a Volunteer officers dinner was held in Bombay which ended with all those present who had not volunteered for overseas service being ritually de-bagged!

Harry

[Guest]

Bushfighter - would you know the names of the various volunteer units that existed in India at the outbreak of WWI?

[bushfighter]

Martin

Presently I'm in Borneo & so cannot refer to my library.

However I suggest that you obtain Chris Kempton's latest book:

The Regiments & Corps of the H.E.I.C & Indian Armies Volunteer Forces

see: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Regiments-H-E-I-C-Indian-Armies-Volunteer/dp/085420363X/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343366460&sr=1-5

but order it from the publisher, Military Press, at:

http://www.militarypress.co.uk/index.htm

Harry

[Guest JON12]

Here's one for you:

SETON Captain Henry Winton - Born on 1 August 1887. Commissioned into the Indian Army on 25 January 1908 and joined 1/9^th Gurkha Rifles. Served on the North West Frontier in 1908 at the engagement at Matta. India General Service Medal and clasp ‘North West Frontier 1908’. Lieutenant 25 April 1910. Attached to the 9^th (Service) Battalion, Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers) (County Armagh) as adjutant in November 1914. Captain 1 September 1915. To France with 36^th (Ulster) Division in October 1915. 1914-15 Star. Left on 6 December 1915 to return to 1/9^th Gurkha Rifles, but joined 20^th (Reserve) Battalion, The Royal Irish Rifles on 19 June 1916 as adjutant to Lieutenant Colonel S W W Blacker. Relinquished his appointment 15 May 1918. Retired on account of ill-health 25 July 1923. Died at Cornwall in 1976, aged 89.

Hello Nick82 Just seen your post , Would like to know if you have anymore information on Captain Seton, who happens to be my father who I last saw when I was 8 yrs. old. Thanks

[Guest JON12]

Thanks Nick 82 for the info on Captain Henry Winton Seton, Have you any more on Captain Seton or can you tell me your source. My reason for asking is I am related to Captain Seton Many Thanks

[celebrinthil]

Martin

Just to confirm your point about IA officers serving with a British regiment in India - it was normal for an IA officer to spend 12 months "acclimatising" before joining their Indian regiment. Many Indian Cavalry officers spent their attachments with British Infantry regiments. also IIRC the language requirement was proficiency in Hindustani and one other native language.

mike

[hazelclark]

Just seen this post. Have been reading the Meerut Diaries for 1914/1915 and there was a fair bit of commissioning from the ranks as well as reinforcements from India who it seems were considered sub-standard!

Hazel C

[bushfighter]

The War Diary of the 2nd Bn The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment (2LNL) tells an interesting tale.

2LNL was in the Bangalore Brigade that landed with Indian Expeditionary Force "C" in East Africa.

After a few weeks in East Africa, to the utter surprise of the Commanding Officer (CO), several newly-commissioned ex-sergeants arrived in the Bn from British Army infantry and cavalry regiments in India.

The CO was not too keen on this as he was consulting with the Governor of British East Africa (now Kenya) about commissioning "suitable gentlemen" from the local settler community, and three such young lads were commissioned by the Governor.

What appears to have really upset the CO about the newly-commissioned ex-sergeants is that they came from India in such haste that THEY WERE DEFICIENT IN CERTAIN ITEMS OF OFFICERS PERSONAL KIT!!!

Anyway, everybody got over everything and one of the newly-commissioned ex-sergeants gained an MC and later was Adjutant of the Machine Gun Corps Depot in UK.

I mention this incident to demonstrate that after the declaration of war British Army units in India were obviously being trawled to find suitable NCOs who could be immediately commissioned.

Also, on the arrival of the Territorial Army units in India from the UK a whole new pool of personnel became available for both considerations for commissions and for the posting of suitable TA officers and NCOs into staff, instructional and Lines of Communication duties.

Harry

[Patricia Broderick]

Hi, I am researching a european soldier, H. W. Whitwell born in Katmandu who fought in WW1. He died in 1920 and is buried in the war cemetery in Bagdad. I need to know how he died. I was interested to see that he is mentioned in the list above concerning (British) Indian Army Officers Serving in British Battalions.

So far, this is what I know:

Records show that Harry, cited as H.W. Whitwell, ( the W stood for Wishart a name earned from his mother), was listed from January 1914, the year of the first world war which broke out on the 28 July of that year.. Known as a Double Company Officer he held the rank of Captain in the service of the British Army and was with the 13^th Rajputs (the Shekhawati Regiment). In October 1914 his rank was Temporary Major, (Service) Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusilliers this record continues: Rank Temporary Major, Rank ((2^nd) Capt, Service British Army, Regiment 13^th Rajputs. By January 1917 he was ranked Major serving in the British Army and his regiment is stated as Indian Army. When he died on 15^th August 1920 his rank was Major and then the record states 'Record (2^nd) Acting Lieutenant Colonel in the British Army, Regiment, 13^th Rajputs (Shekhawati Regiment) and it states that he is commemorated in Iraq. His grave is in the Baghdad War Cemetary. This tells us that he had fought and survived the entire period of WW1, only to die in Iraq between the two great wars

I need to understand what is meant by his being with the Royal Inniskilling Fusilliers. Was he seconded because he was needed as an officer or was there an amalgamation of the Irish troops with the Indian troops under his command?

Any help with these descriptions would be very welcomed and acknowledged. It would be very interesting to know if he fought in Europe. He was third generation european born and bred in India but after his father's death (a Dr in the EIA army) his mother is recorded in 1920 as living in the UK.

I do not have an army background, but as Henry Whitwell was a european brought up in India I would have thought he would be more useful with his indian troops than any others. He would very likely have spoken their language. I want to write accurately so expert help is advised!! Thanks in anticipation.

[Guest]

Hi, I am researching a european soldier, H. W. Whitwell born in Katmandu who fought in WW1. He died in 1920 and is buried in the war cemetery in Bagdad. I need to know how he died. I was interested to see that he is mentioned in the list above concerning (British) Indian Army Officers Serving in British Battalions.

So far, this is what I know:

Records show that Harry, cited as H.W. Whitwell, ( the W stood for Wishart a name earned from his mother), was listed from January 1914, the year of the first world war which broke out on the 28 July of that year.. Known as a Double Company Officer he held the rank of Captain in the service of the British Army and was with the 13^th Rajputs (the Shekhawati Regiment). In October 1914 his rank was Temporary Major, (Service) Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusilliers this record continues: Rank Temporary Major, Rank ((2^nd) Capt, Service British Army, Regiment 13^th Rajputs. By January 1917 he was ranked Major serving in the British Army and his regiment is stated as Indian Army. When he died on 15^th August 1920 his rank was Major and then the record states 'Record (2^nd) Acting Lieutenant Colonel in the British Army, Regiment, 13^th Rajputs (Shekhawati Regiment) and it states that he is commemorated in Iraq. His grave is in the Baghdad War Cemetary. This tells us that he had fought and survived the entire period of WW1, only to die in Iraq between the two great wars

I need to understand what is meant by his being with the Royal Inniskilling Fusilliers. Was he seconded because he was needed as an officer or was there an amalgamation of the Irish troops with the Indian troops under his command?

Any help with these descriptions would be very welcomed and acknowledged. It would be very interesting to know if he fought in Europe. He was third generation european born and bred in India but after his father's death (a Dr in the EIA army) his mother is recorded in 1920 as living in the UK.

I do not have an army background, but as Henry Whitwell was a european brought up in India I would have thought he would be more useful with his indian troops than any others. He would very likely have spoken their language. I want to write accurately so expert help is advised!! Thanks in anticipation.

He was probably on leave in the UK and prevented by the War Office from returning. He was sent to the 6th (Service) Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (part of Kitchener's first Army or K1) around Sep 1914. As the ARmy expanded it was desperately short of trained Officers and the solution was to press them into service from any available source - including Indian Army Officers on leave in the UK. The 6th (Service) Battalion formed part of 31st Infantry Brigade, 10th Irish Division and first saw service at Gallipoli although it doesn't look as if he embarked with the battalion. His MIC provides no disembarkation date and no eligibility for the 1914-15 Star. He is not mentioned in their Gallipoli diary. He may well have been transferred to another unit, but he was certainly with the Battalion in May 1915 according to the Army List.

He is not mentioned in the Royal Innsikilling Fusiliers' published history.

I suspect he left the 6th Bn Royal Inniskilling Fus before they went overseas.

MG

[David Filsell]

Martin (and all responders)

Martin this may just give you some leads to follow up on Idian Army officers .

Some years ago I purchased a Gale and Polden group photograph of 'D' Company RMC taken in May 1913. This was to the best of my knowledge the (or one of) the last classes to Pass out from the College.

I have researched a number of them in some detail, including the Instructing Staff).

The outline of (known and confirmed ) fatalities may also be of interest. - both first and second world war fatalities

No less that nine of the company were destined for the Indian army, two are marked to have definitely been re-attached to British Army Bns (see notes below)

I did not then have, or try to find out, reference to the Indian Army Lists, and still do not. but have long wondered others amongst this group were attached to British Units.

The attached list may both be of assistance to Martin and others.

I would obviously welcome any information which others may have on these individuals (although this is not the object of putting the material up on the forum).

Hope it is of some help.

I am as certain as I can be that I have located all the casualties amongst the men who served with British formations - the analysis of deaths covers only these.

Happy to answer questions on those I have researched (within reason - serious customers only in view of to much recent experience of assisting idle ******* who cannot be bothered to offer a polite thanks for assistance). No least because there is a book lurking in what I have found!

White Benjamin Goring

Date of Birth 31.08.94

Admitted to Sandhurst 04.09.12

Left College 17.12.13

Father ‘s Profession Major-General (retired)

Gazetted 12.01.14 Indian Army (attached 1^st Bn Royal Sussex Regiment)

Cameron Aylmer Lochiel Cameron

Date of Birth 12.02.13

Admitted to Sandhurst 12.02.13

Left Sandhurst 15.07.14

Father ‘s profession Major (deceased)

Gazetted 08.08.14 Indian Army

Curtis Alfred Cyril Curtis

Date of Birth 02.11.94

Admitted to Sandhurst 12.02.13

Left Sandhurst 15.07.14

Father’s profession Major (deceased)

Gazetted 15.02.14 Indian Army

Fullerton John Parke

Date of Birth 08.09.94

Admitted to College 04.09.12

Left College 17.12.13

Father ‘s Profession Major I.M.S

Gazetted 14.01.14 Indian Army (Attached 2^nd Bn East

Surrey Regiment)

Harding Kenneth O`Brian

Date of Birth 28.08.94

Admitted to College 12.02.13

Left College 15.07.14

Father’s Profession Doctor

Gazetted 15.08.14 Indian Army

Roberts Michael Rookhurst

Date of Birth 34.10.94

Admitted to Sandhurst 12.02.13

Left College 15.07.14

Father’ Profession Civil Engineer

Gazetted 08.08.14 Indian Army

Searle Carlton Stuart

Date of Birth 11.10.95

Admitted to Sandhurst 12.0213

Left College 15.07.14

Father’s Profession Colonel

Gazetted 08.08.14 Indian Army

Winner of Signalling Prize

Tuker Corporal F I S (sic)

Tukor Corporal Francis Ivan Simms

Date of Birth 14.07.94

Admitted to Sandhurst 04.09.12

Left College 17.12.13

Father’s Profession Gentleman

Gazetted 14.01.14 Indian Army (attached 1^st Bn Royal Sussex Regiment)

2^nd Lieutenant F I S Tuker

On Unattached list for Indian Army Commissioned 14^th January 1914

Wilson Robert Hamilton Birch

Date of Birth 20.05.95

Admitted to Sandhurst 12.02.13

Left College 05.07.14

Father’s Profession Civil Engineer C.I.E.

Gazetted 08.08.14 Indian Army

Whistler Aubrey Rivett

Date of Birth 07.07.94

Admitted to Sandhurst 12.02.14

Left College 05.07.14

Father’s Profession Colonel

Gazetted 08.08.14 Indian Army

STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF KNOWN CASUALTIES “D” COMPANY, ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE

SANDHURST , MAY 1913

Total Students 64

Total Instruction Staff 7

Total Killed in the Great War

1. 13 20.3%
2. 03 4.6%
3. 03 4.6%
4. 01 1.5%
5. 03 1.5%

TOTAL 23 35.9%

Total Killed in the 2^nd World War

1940 01

1941 01

1942 01

1. 01

TOTAL 04 6.2% Grand total 24 42.1%

[Patricia Broderick]

Thank you Martin, I will come back to you when I have absorbed what you have told me. One query what do the initials MIC mean in this context, please. Very grateful for

your trouble in helping this research.